M2 HRE Test Imperial Diet Deliberations

[Lucjan]

This Thread is for the passing of Edicts and other deliberations that may occur in the Imperial Diet sessions. The first one starts today!

I believe it is now 8:45 PM GMT Friday, this session will last until 8:45 PM GMT on Monday.

Players are also encouraged to go to the Imperial Deliberations and set their first turn orders.

[Tamur]

Fellow Dukes, Counts, and others of the Imperial court,

It is with great anticipation that I address you today. We face challenges on from all sides. We are surrounded by those who were once part of the Empire but who have either recently or in the past broken from us. Our cardinal, as pious and devout as Saint Peter, is looked on narrowly by that Pope who sits in Rome. Trade with other nations has reached a low point beneath which we can hardly sink.

My nature, as you must know, is to do something about these things rather than let them stand. We must start again to build the Empire into something our children will be proud to take as their own.

I suggest three courses of action:

First, trade. I suggest that Princess Agnes be sent immediately to use her not inconsiderable beauty to secure trade agreements with the Hungarians and the Polish. Good relations with these two nations will secure our eastern border, and bring much wealth to the Empire. I do fear she will be offered for marriage before this happens, and I must warn in the strongest possible language that any offers of marriage be rejected until those trade agreements are secured!

Second, I suggest that someone question Captain Markus on his foolish and seemingly senseless laying of an ambush west of Hamburg! I realise he is young and inexperienced, but this is an almost criminal waste of the Imperial army. I would instead suggest that the army be reinforced and take Hamburg itself rather than sit on the road like petty bandits. I can offer one unit of Spear Militia to this cause.

Third, though it is not indeed my greatest love, someone ought to look to the spiritual well-being of such regions as Frankfurt -- no blame should be attached of course to our righteous leader Chancellor Dietrich, but the level of attention the common people there pay to the Church is a bit of an embarrassment to the Empire.

May you all remain in good health and with God,

Duke Leopold

[EDIT]:

My fellow landed nobles,

I humbly request that any of you endowed with a Castle write to me as soon as time comes available, so that we might discuss an agreement of mutual benefit regarding the protection of the wealthy but poorly garrisoned region of Vienna.

Yours, in God,
Duke Leopold

[Lucjan]

Are these requests to be noted as edicts good Leopold?

If so, I would like to suggest that perhaps the Hungarians and the Polish wait a while. They are not the most wealthy of our neighbors and Poland does not yet even border us. Could I persuade you instead to let our beautiful princess deal with Milan and Venice? Trade from there could bolster the coffers more immediately and substantially than Poland or Hungary. Though those two are also good ideas, I would prefer to send a diplomat rather than risk the life of our princess so far from Imperial lands. A diplomat could deal with Hungary, the Poles, and then Denmark before returning to Franfurt.

As for Captain Markus, he is young and a bit naive. I will be joining him at the helm of the Imperial Army soon to see that Hamburg is brought back into the fold, provided the dukes see this as the best course of action. As for reinforcements, Hamburg is weak, and a fast strike would be preferable to giving it time to bolster its defences or for the Danes to simply walk in and take it.

As for the spirituality of Frankfurt, I have become a bit concerned with this as well, and would like our Cardinal to come to Frankfurt in person to oversee the construction of a church there, and perhaps stay a while to further educate the population in the ways of God.

I hereby propose the following edicts.

1 - Trade Agreements are to be offered to Venice and Milan by the Princess, who can then be married off to a suitable noble.

2 - Trade Agreements are to be offered to Hungary, Poland, and Denmark in that order, by a diplomat from the Imperial Court.

3 - Hamburg is to be brought back into the Empire within the next four years (two turns).

EDIT:

I wonder what the position of the dukes is in regards to Hamburg. The Imperial Army is very close by, and within four years (two turns) I could meet up with it to besiege and fell the city, increasing the Imperial Territory's income. This could alleviate some taxation on our dukes.

Also, what would the dukes say to the proposal of trade agreements to the nations of Venice and Milan, and to a Trade Agreement and Alliance with Denmark?

[econ21]

Duke Leopold, I control our only non-Imperial castle. Please outline what you would like me to do with regard to the defence of Vienna.

I should say that my financial position is very poor and I am contemplating disbanding my standing army to save on upkeep so that I can eventually obtain the funds required to upgrade the keep. If anyone would like to purchase my existing troops, it would avoid the waste of disbanding them.

I will support the Chancellor in his plans and second his edicts. I would also welcome his advice on how I should acquire the money necessary to upgrade Innsbruck castle, giving other Dukes access to better trained men.

He should also consider whether the Empire would wish to receive a gift of my infantry (bearing in mind this would men paying the upkeep). And I would welcome his opinion on where the greatest threat to the Empire lays - particularly if he believes Innsbruck itself would be threatened if not garrisoned by any infantry.

[Lucjan]

To leave Innsbruck completely undefended would be folly, as both Venice and Milan are powerful neighbors with close borders there, and we aren't yet sure of their intentions. Perhaps an edict declaring your direct desires for Innsbruck could be outlined?

I would currently be willing to allow the Imperial coffers to absorb the cost of taking one of your spear and archer regiments into the Imperial garrison at Staufen.

I would also like to propose an edict altering our taxation levels for the next 10 years (five turns).

My review of our income suggests that in order to bring some money for advancement into the ducal households the Imperial tax must be lessened. Some disbandment will occur in the Imperial garrisons to allow our coffers to handle upkeep. But what is necessary must be done. The Imperial disbandment orders will be detailed more directly in the strategy room (The Orders Thread).

My suggested change for Imperial taxation is as follows.


Taxation Edict #1
1 - Until Bologne can put it's 1,000 florin grant to use in getting back on it's feet, the Imperial coffers will cover the cost of their 20 florin deficit.
2 - Taxes for Vienna set to 200 florins.
3 - Taxes for Innsbruck set to 0.
4 - Taxes for all other settlements will remain as is until we hear from the
occupying nobility, at which point this clause of the edict will be altered.

[Tamur]

Two matters:

First, what level of imperial tax are we to be facing for the coming few years? My accountants are a bit concerned that we faced 100% tax this year, and could face 100% tax in future years as well -- a prospect that pleases few.

Second, I appreciate the honest mention of your financial position, Duke Otto, and would like to help with it. Depending on what answer I receive regarding tax rate, I would be willing to pay you for part of your army, so do not disband quite yet.

I agree that Venice and Milan pose the greatest threat, as well as offer the greatest benefits, to the Empire at this time. If the Princess could be married to one of Venetian or Milanese blood, that would be a coup indeed! And I do second the edict regarding Hamburg, may it fall swiftly and with little pain.


edit: ask and ye shall receive! Please ignore my question regarding tax rate.

[Lucjan]

I have suggested a 200 florin tax for Vienna, at the very high taxes you've set this would amount to Vienna acquiring 742 florins income (every turn) if absolutely nothing changes in Vienna's economy. Though this is almost an impossibility as roads and the merchant you've commissioned will raise your cities trade level fairly.

[Tamur]

I will agree to the Chancellor's tax edicts wholeheartedly. My merchants will be exceedingly glad to see this money put to use locally, and my appreciation can only be shown in future service of the Empire.

Duke Otto, I must review the new tax information I have received and determine the best course of action. I can at least say with certainty that I will be able to afford to purchase from you one unit of Mailed Knights. The hire of other troops is possible in future, but again, my accountants are working on this problem.

[econ21]

Chancellor, I am bemused by your proposed Imperial tax schedule. Currently, Vienna is making a gross profit of 521 with normal taxes and hence paying that much to the Imperium. You propose to lower her Imperial taxes to 200, despite knowing that she can increase her gross profits still further by raising local taxes.

By contrast, Innsbruck is making a gross profit of 78 and cannot change her local taxes, yet you propose lowering taxes to 75.

I wonder, what have the good, hard-working but poor citizens of Innsbruck done to deserve a miserly tax cut of 3 florings while their richer cousins in Vienna will benefit from a tax cut a hundred times bigger, of 321 florins?!?

I fear I cannot support this tax bill - my subjects would lynch me if I did!

I am grateful, however, for the offer to pay the upkeep of some of my men. Unfortunately, I fear this would be against article 5.7 of our constitution unless it were formally proposed and passed as an edict.

Duke Leopold, if you would like knights to be recruited for you from Innsbruck, I suggest we formalise this. Please post a contractual offer (in the orders thread) and I will accept or decline it. I believe the Chancellor has on another occasion suggested a 25% mark up on the purchase price, which would seem reasonable.

And gentlemen, lest you think I am being too money grabbing here, I would assure you that my concern is only raising the 2400 funds to upgrade my keep to a castle. With a new profit of only 3 florins every two years, it will take me a fair while to achieve that.

On the subject of disbanding some of my men in order to start accumulating a surplus, I will propose disbanding one archer and one spearman unless the Chancellor advises that even that economy too risky.

I should also say that I am eager to see action and am willing to be posted anywhere that the Chancellor bids fit (ooc: to avoid autocalcs).

[Lucjan]

Duke Otto,
Your concerns are not without reason, and I had intended on lowering Innsbruck's tax levels upon hearing from more of our nobility, but time is getting short and I don't know whether we will or not, so I'm lowering the proposed tax level for Innsbruck to 0. I realise the impoverished state of your castle, and pending the size of Imperial coffers in 10 years time, may be interested in passing an edict to have Imperial coffers finance the construction of a larger castle in Innsbruck rather than having the funds come from your own ducal treasury.

I thought I had made mention of that, you'll have to forgive my absent mindedness.

[econ21]

Chancellor, with a tax of zero for Innsbruck, I would be happy to support your tax schedule.

The idea of a collectively funded castle at Innsbruck had occurred to me too, as I believe all Dukes will benefit from having access to the most advanced forces.

I intend to consult my master armourers and trainers to see what kind of forces the Empire might work towards training. It strikes me that we are particularly deficient in heavy infantry, which may be a problem if our move on Hamburg brings us into conflict with Denmark - which may soon start levying Huscarls and fielding dismounted Feudal Knights

I should say that I am happy to take any direction from the Chancellor, or advice from the Duke of Vienna, on what Innsbruck should work towards.

One contingency that perhaps we should discuss is what to do if the Pope calls a crusade. I believe we should try to participate in such a holy venture if at all possible and would be honoured to lead our expedition should the Chancellor sanction it.

[Lucjan]

Ah, yes, the Pope. I believe for the sake of maintaining peace within our own nation that we leave it up to the individual dukes to decide amongst themselves what shall be sent and who shall lead such a venture. As you know, soldiers on Crusade no longer cost any upkeep until they reach their destination successfully. I would be willing to keep a record of the absent finances and then reinstate them accordingly for each duke if the crusade is a success. But due to the nature of the Holy Roman Empire, I don't think the Emperor would be very enthusiastic about Imperial troops being ordered about on the Pope's campaigns.

How do you feel Duke Otto, Duke Leopold?

[Tamur]

(Leopold)

To be honest, Chancellor, I could not give so much as a rat's dropping to the Pope and his bloody crusades without missing it bitterly. However, I realise that our... *pauses* trade partners all about us will be looking for any possible way to make us stumble in the Pope's eyes. Enough stumbles, and it is open season on us and hell on earth for my merchants.

So, I am willing to sacrifice a unit of archers and a unit of spearmen to the crusade cause, if it comes to that. However, I sincerely pray that it won't.

In regards to the collective support of our castles -- I had planned to make specific financial arrangements with Innsbruck only. However, if other townholders feel this is a wise course of action, we could consider the possibility of paying a certain amount to the Empire which is then funneled *directly* to our good Dukes who are castle-holders. But I must warn that any Imperial taxation of this transaction will lead to its immediate breakdown!

I will need to consult with other townholders before we can even begin to haggle over such an agreement, though.

(ooc: are there any other non-imperial townholders? hehehe)

[Tamur]

(Leopold)

Also, I would like to say that I agree with Duke Otto's thoughts on settling on a course of action, then doing it. The direction he chooses is certainly his own matter.

As for the Imperial castles: as he says, we are very deficient in infantry. Also, for the good of the defence of our cities, we need solid, well-trained bowmen who can rain death on our enemies before they even reach our gates.

Obviously I am not much of a horseman. Horses cost a great deal, and I am not at all convinced they are worth the price when it comes to defending our cities from invasion. If we come to the point where we need to be the agressors, then it would be worth developing our capabilities in this area.

[Strappy Horse]

(Heinrich)

Excellent work, Chancellor Diettrich! I understand you have a good grasp on things in the Reich, and I wholeheartedly support your proposed edicts.

I would advise you to be vigilant in your dealings with the Venetians and the Milanese. The Duke of Milan does not fly a viper in his standard for nothing, these Italians care more about money than they do about honour.

Two neighbouring nations that I miss in these proposals, are France and Sicily.
I'll admit, in the harsh climate of the northern duchies it's hard to think of Sicily as a neighbour, but here in Bologna it's hard to ignore.
Also, an alliance with France's flower of chivalry would be a major step towards a safe Reich.

Regarding the matter with the Pope, well, what can I say. I'll just say he is like any other Italian politician. A crusade however offers one a chance to fight for a truly holy cause! I know my soul would be much more at ease after I fought and rescued Jesu's grave from those Saracen dogs!

[Strappy Horse]

(Heinrich)

On the subject of taxes, under the current tax policy, Bologna seems to come off well, with a small Imperial subsidy instead of a tax.

However, due to our location, isolated from the rest of the Reich, a large army, with a high upkeep will be necessary in order to keep Bologna under Imperial rule.
Furthermore, it's hard to find decent, honest clerks here in Italy, and I suspect many florins disappear in various pockets before they even reach my treasury.

I'll admit, an Imperial subsidy is absurd, but I advise against too large a raise for the above mentioned reasons.

[Lucjan]

Thank you Emperor. I will see what can be done to free up some of Bologna's taxes without having to increase the subsidy.

But, the French m'lord? *The chancellor stumbles on masking a scoff*

You suggest we befriend the French? But the French are, well, Frenchmen. *There is an obvious look of disgust at their mention on the chancellor's face.*

[Tamur]

(Duke Leopold)

May I be the first to officially congratulate Chancellor Diettrich on his fine accounting staff. This is a brilliant example of how to run an Empire!

Duke Otto, with our first orders completed, I remain in doubt of any agreement between us in regards to troops and money. I had asked for a unit of Mailed Knights and had also held out the possibility of making a more permanent arrangement for some measure of protection here in Vienna, with a resulting payment to you large enough to make it worth your while.

If you have worked out an arrangement with the Chancellor or another Duke, then my blessings to you, and I will look elsewhere for help. Whatever the case, I would appreciate an honest and clear response on these proposals.

Heinrich, I find it hard to believe that the father who played with myself and the dogs like a boy only a few years ago has become the Emperor of all that is Holy and Roman. I send greetings to yourself and mother, and hope that you are well. And tell Henry he may not have that rag doll for his own children. Agnes spoke for it years ago.


Yours, in God,
Duke Leopold

[Tamur]

Duke Otto, you suggest 850 florins for a unit of Mailed Knights. I find that my finances cannot quite do this. However, perhaps it is possible for you to train up a unit of Mounted Sergeants for me, at a cost of 600 florins?

You also mention the possibility of building a fully completed castle in Innsbruck. Assuming I would have first choice (after you, of course) of the better troops you could train in such a place, what would you like my contribution to be in that effort?

[econ21]

I must congratulate the Chancellor on seizing Hamburg so quickly. May I inquire how was it done? The castle has walls and we do not have any siege equipment. How was the Imperial Army able to breach its defences so easily?

Please can you explain your plans for the Imperial Army - where and to what end do you propose to deploy it next?

Duke Leopold, you proposed contract is accepted with thanks. I wonder if we should agree a collective strategy, as the two Dukes in the south? By pooling our resources, we will be able to achieve much more than by acting alone.

There are several rebel settlements to the east - notably Prague. Perhaps we should work towards creating a combined army that can persuade them to join the Empire? At the very least, a combined force may be useful for defensive purposes, should either one of us be attacked.

Alternatively, we could merely seek to invest in the peaceful development of our settlements. But I fear even after such development, they may fall if seriously attacked by other factions' equivalent of the Imperial Army.

In terms of developing our troop buildings in Innsbruck, my armourers and trainers have informed me that the path we must follow is a long and expensive one. Right now, I could build a barracks to obtain sergeant spearmen. With a castle, I could work towards armoured sergeants and peasant crossbowmen. It is only with a fortress that we will be able to obtain what I believe to be the most useful soldiers - dismounted feudal knights and pavise crossbowmen.

I propose investing in more farming land, to boost my income and increase the population so that Innsbruck could sooner support a fortress. I also believe a road might be a worthwhile investment so that we can more easily move to each others aid. Depending on the sentiments of the people, a small church may also be in order.

Consequently, my current thinking is to delay a major investment in troop building facilities for a short while. However, if you or the Chancellor believe this is a mistake, I would be willing to rethink this approach.

[Tamur]

Duke Otto, you know me as a man of business. Hence you can guess that I heartily agree with your plans to provide benefits to your lands and people first. Only when the farmers and the merchants are happy can any land survive for long.

Is there anything I can do to speed this process of building roads and clearning farmland in the Innsbruck region? For now, I will give orders for a gift of 400 florins to be delivered to you as soon as possible for the purposes you have outlined.

Also, I have received some reports of these settlements you mention. As our needs grow, such settlements could be well worth taking. What would you have me provide for such an army as you suggest, when the time comes to build it?

[Tamur]

Some of my advisors are nervous regarding the Hungarians and the Poles, and request that the Chancellor commission the training of a spy for the purpose of keeping watch on our eastern border.

Although I would like to hire this man as my own, at the present time I cannot pay for such an expensive man's upkeep. Therefore I am laying this at the Chancellor's table, hoping he has the finances do to such a thing. If not, then Otto and I shall begin preparations to begin taking rebel settlements in our area to increase our revenues.

[Lucjan]

Much thanks for your congratulations Leopold. But fear not the Hungarians or the Poles, we have a diplomat on the way to secure fair relations between us, and while we do have a spy already position in the east near Magdeburg, the thought of keeping a bit of a better eye on all of our borders with nations of significant status is appealling. Though I have to say I don't think the Imperial Coffers need be overly spent to do so in the long run. Do you think watch towers may suffice? I think it's strong enough in the Empires interest to warrant an edict transferring the necessary funds for their construction.

Thanks also to Otto for his congratulations. You'll have to forgive me on my lack of reporting in regards to Hamburg, I'm new to the chancellory and the learning curve has taken a fair bit of my time. As for Hamburg's fall, we hired a local band of mercenary spearmen before the siege and I bade the army construct a battering ram while they awaited my arrival, the swifter Hamburg's fall the better. Initially we had wanted only to make use of the mercenaries, but the cities archers were unexpectedly taxing on our men, so we had to retaliate with our own missiles while our mercenaries and spear militia dealt with the city's defenders at the gate, which, ironically enough, they raised right before our ram reached it in an attempt to block it with their spearmen instead. A false sense of bravado urged them to attempt a sally I guess. We lost more men than I had wanted, but the city fell regardless. As for right now, I have no immediate plans for the Imperial Army and they will remain in Hamburg until a small militia group can arrive to take over the guard duty, at which point they'll move out and construct a fort near the castle where the army will be stationed until required.

Also, if you are thinking of temporarily delaying a castle project, this could give the Imperial coffers time to accrue the necessary finances to take the whole of the construction costs beneath its wing.

[Strappy Horse]

I hope this message arrives in time, you all know how difficult it is to cross the Alps this time of year.

Leo,
thanks for your fine words.
Mother has been very well, she has been enjoying the Italian weather and sends her regards.
It took some 'convincing' before Gregory agreed to crown me as Emperor though,
Still, it's only my presence, at the head of a sizeable army, here in Italy that's keeping him from more 'bold' moves. I may need to appoint a new pope, sooner rather later.


Congratulations as well to the Chancellor, with the swift capture of Hamburg. It adds to the glory of the Reich, as well as your personal glory, Lord Diettrich.

I am sorry to hear about your reluctance to ally with King Philippe, the knights of France would make a noble ally. Then again, proving our own prowess in battle against such a renowned foe, accounts for much more glory!
Your skill as a politician astounds me again, surely you are the right man for this office.

[Lucjan]

My thanks to you for your kind words Emperor Heinrich. May I ask though, what is your initial opinion of the Danes?

Personally, I think these seafaring cousins of the Germans could provide us with some unique trading oppertunities, and having a small ally to our north could prove beneficial in at least that our attentions could be better aimed at solidifying the Reich's borders where they are more likely to become volatile.

[Strappy Horse]

The Danes, it's hard to judge them from southern side of the Alps, I fully trust your judgement in this matter, Lord Chancellor.
Their pagan and violent history does not bode well though, and I hear rumours from Venetian merchants that those Danish Hanse merchants use the same vigour and aggression in trade as their ancesters did on their raids.

One a slightly different matter, my son Henry has now reached an age of 21 years, it is due time for him to get a wife.
I received letters from the Kings of Hungary and Denmark, to talk about a potential marriage.
I hear Princess Pioska of Hungary is a pretty girl, and a marriage-bond would ensure a safe border in the east.
Princess Ingrid of Denmark is supposed to be as enthralling as any princess, and an alliance with King Knud would settle the northern borders. Unless ofcourse those Danes sell their womenfolk as just another trade good.

[Lucjan]

Personally, I'm not much of one to engage in arranging marriages, but maybe some of our other Dukes have an opinion on this?

[Tamur]

I know only what the common folk say regarding Princess Pioska, which is all good, and I think she and Henry would be a good match.

Ingrid is worth, from what I have heard, less than the roads she travels. She attempts to use her charms to lure in men and then she turns on them with the vigour of a Hanse merchant attempting to put someone out of business. No, I think Henry deserves better than this wench in fine clothing.

[Lucjan]

To be completely honest Ingrid did initially strike me as being a bit uncultured.

[econ21]

To the esteemed Dukes of Vienna and Nuremburg: I propose we form a south German combined army. Our first target could be those rebels at the intersection of our lands. In due course, our army could perhaps move east for conquest or, if the weather darkens, be valuable in mutual defence. I fear that, at least initially, we are too poor and weak individually to be effective on the field. But if we combine, we may have sufficient forces.

I am open to suggestions about the leadership and composition of this force. It strikes me that if all three of use personally join the army, we will form a powerful force composed of just our own escort of knights. (Moreover, should some of our brave men fall, we will be able to replace them over time by knighting other eager men - and do so at no extra cost.) We would need only to add a few extra infantry to have a battle worthy force.

I suggest we could recruit mercenaries until such a time as Innsbruck is ready to train true patriots. Some companies of mercenary sergeants and crossbowmen have passed by Innsbruck touting their services and they struck me as being decent enough fighters.

I am also open on the question of timing - delaying such recruitment will save us upkeep. But I caution that if we do not develop our military, some of our neighbours may come to see us as easy prey and embroil us in a war that will be more expensive to cure than it would be to prevent.

I would also welcome the Chancellor's views on this proposal.