M2 HRE Test OOC Thread
Out of Character comments thread for the M2 pbem test. This test will largely determine the validity and ease of opperation for a more decentralised version of a Will of the Senate style pbem for use with Medieval 2, or even other TW pbem games, so questions, comments, and any other player or non-player concerns can be voiced here so we can work out the best possible way to see this through to a full fledged, operable pbem near January.
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This is the beginning of the Medieval 2: Holy Roman Empire test pbem. This first post will outline current players and rules and will be updated accordingly.
Current Players and Status are as follows.
Lucjan - Chancellor Dietrich Von Saxony, Landless Duke
Econ21 - Otto von Kassel, Duke of Innsbruck
Ignoramus - Cardinel Peter Scherer (Only thing available at the moment, btw, do you have the game yet?)
Tamur - Leopold, Duke of Vienna
Braden - Maximillian Mandorf, Count of Nuremburg
An IC Deliberations thread, OOC thread, Imperial Diet thread and Archives thread will be started as well, and I will maintain the Archives thread.
Rules (A collective work by the current players and a few others, thank you also to Econ21 for taking the time to write up this well organised brief.)
How to play – in brief
Players are either Dukes or Counts (collectively “nobles”). Both will have an in-game character (typically a general) or avatar who will represent them.
A key difference between Dukes and Counts is that Dukes micromanage the movement of their avatar and any troops and settlements they control. For example, if he gets into a battle, the Duke is expected to download the savegame and fight the battle. Counts are suitable for players who cannot or do not want to do that.
Dukes will govern specific settlements – cities or castles. They will decide what buildings and troops to purchase, subject to their own resources. Counts may also do this, with some provisos.
Collectively, the nobles form the Imperial Diet where each has one vote.
Every tenth turn, the Imperial Diet will elect a Chancellor. The Chancellor will be the “reigning player” and execute the orders of the Dukes, as well as control central (“Imperial”) assets such as the capital (Frankfurt), the Imperial castle (Staufen) and the Imperial army.
Every five turns, the Imperial Diet will be in session. When in a session, nobles will vote on “edicts” that mandate the Chancellor to specific action. Crucially, these include authorising declarations of war and the setting of taxes.
Game settings
*MT2TW unmodded (but hopefully patched for the real thing).
*Hard campaigns, very hard battles.
*Large unit size.
*Battle timer on. Show CPU Moves, Manage all Settlements
Standard victory conditions (45 provinces, including Jerusalem).
Hard restrictions on play: * only two land units (including a general) may travel on each ship.
How to play - detailed rules
1. Logistical matters
1.1. When the Chancellor announces a new turn, he will post the savegame for the start of that turn. He will also post the current financial balance of each Duke.
1.2. During the 48 hours after posting the save, there will be an “orders phase.” During this time, each Duke can give orders for:
(a) troop movements
(b) construction and recruitment in his settlement(s) subject to his current balance.
(c) tax rates
Often they will have no changes to their prior orders. If no orders are received, the Duke’s forces cannot be moved and all their balance is saved. Players are to place any movement orders they have for their army or units in their army in the Ducal Commands thread. Orders should be clear and detailed enough to be understood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucjan
Ex 1 - Duke of Staufen - I'm ordering the movement of my Avatar, 2 Mailed Knights, 3 Spear Militias, and 2 Peasant Archers from the Castle of Staufen to march westwards. Their target is the bridge on the river crossing between the Staufen Region and the Metz Region. Next turn, order them to Besiege Metz.
Ex 2 - I want to recruit 1 unit of Mailed Knights and 2 units of peasant militia from the Castle of Staufen.
1.3. The Chancellor will then execute these orders to the best of his abilities (this - and the management of accounts - must be done strictly ooc - no manipulating orders, fiddling the books etc).
1.4. If a Duke’s army gets into a battle, the Chancellor will upload the savegame and PM the Duke. The Duke will have 48 hours from the sending of the PM to play the battle and upload a new save, or the battle will be autoresolved.
1.5. Troop movements – Dukes may only have one army in the field. Reinforcements can be moved in separate stacks, but must not exceed five units. The Chancellor will control his own Ducal army and the Imperial army, both single stacks. Stacks may be merged but unless players are gifting units, the Chancellor must keep track of units. Armies 5 units or less in strength that are being transferred between players count as part of the receiving player's ducal army, draw income from the receiving player's total income, and do not penalise the receiving player while they are en route to the receiving player. Basically, until they reach the Ducal army, they count as part of it income wise, but not physically until they actually join up. This is to avoid contradicting the "1 standing army per player" rule.
1.6. If an army conquers a new settlement, that settlement belongs to the owner of the conquering army - i.e. a Duke or the Empire.
1.7. If there are players wishing to join the game as Dukes who do not have a settlement, any settlement conquered by an Imperial army will be offered to them. Any settlement conquered by a Ducal army may be offered to them at the discretion of the Duke. If such an offer is made, the new Duke owes a debt of gratitude to his patron. If such an offer is not made, other nobles may take a dim view of the conqueror.
1.8. A Duke who has not given orders and has not actively participated, without giving prior notice that they may be temporarily unavailable, can be dispossessed of his lands and relegated to the role of a Count. If they do not give orders for 10 consecutive terms, they may be removed from the game.
1.9. Dukes who are unable to play for a period of time may transfer management of their lands and armies to another Duke (e.g. the Chancellor), acting as their steward. However, the steward, not the absentee Count/Duke, will have authority over their lands and armies and battles led by their Count/Duke’s avatar must be autoresolved.
1.10. This is a cooperative game - Dukes cannot leave the Empire and become autonomous states.
2. Money matters
2.1. Purchases - Dukes, including the Chancellor, can spend up to their current balance in their own settlement(s) on buildings or troops; or they may save the balance. The Chancellor can also spend up to the Imperial balance on Imperial settlements, agents or ships, or may save the balance.
2.2 Only the Chancellor can purchase and move agents or fleets. He may buy them from other Duke’s settlements with Imperial funds, overriding their build orders if necessary.
2.3. Four Dukes will start the game with one settlement and its garrison each. Frankfurt (the capital) and Staufen are Imperial settlements. The leaderless army in the north is the Imperial army. Other players are landless Dukes or Counts until settlements (and, for all but two, avatars) become available for them.
2.4. The starting balance of 6000 florins is to be divided 1000 to each Duke and 2000 to the Imperial treasury. All florins from capturing a settlement are to be evenly divided between the Dukes, with the Empire receiving a share equivalent to two Dukes.
2.5. For Dukes, current balances are equal to previous balances plus net profits from their settlements. Net profits are gross profits minus Imperial taxes. Gross profits are settlement income minus corruption and minus Army support costs.
2.6. Imperial taxes are lump sums set by 5-turn edicts. They start fixed at gross profits at the start of the game. Only the Chancellor can propose a tax edict. If it is rejected by a Reichstag vote, taxes remain fixed at previous levels.
2.7. The Imperial treasury is to pay for the Imperial army, ships, agents and any sums spent on diplomacy. Revenue accrues to the Imperial treasury from Imperial settlements (just as with Dukes, but with zero tax) and from Imperial taxes. Any sums gained from diplomacy, from ransoms, from missions and from conquering settlements accrue to the Empire. Any troops given as rewards for missions also come under Imperial control. .
2.8. Dukes may pay others to recruit troops for them. The price is negotiable, but for troops bought from a castle, should be at least the recruitment price plus 25%. (This is to compensate castles which are poorer, as they have much less opportunity for economic buildings and cannot raise taxes, but have access to the best troops).
2.9. The Chancellor will keep separate track of his personal settlements and troops, and the Imperial settlements and troops. Imperial income goes straight to the Imperial Armies upkeep and straight into Imperial Coffers. The Chancellor cannot touch the Imperial Territory's income or men for his personal usage. Only his own ducal lands can help him maintain his ducal army and his own ducal strength.
3. The Imperial Diet
3.1. The Imperial Diet will meet in session every 5 turns. Out of session, there can be open debate and deliberations. Each session lasts 3 days.
3.2. At each session, nobles can propose edicts. These require one seconder to be put to the vote.
3.3. Edicts can cover the use of the Imperial army, budgets, fleets, agents and diplomacy. They can also cover the allocation of Imperial settlements (e.g. to landless Dukes) and the coordination of military campaigns (e.g. instructing Duke X to help the Imperial Army). Edicts can transfer Imperial assets to individual Dukes ("privatisation" or rebating surplus tax revenue etc) However, they cannot transfer resources from individual Dukes to Imperial control (no expropriation) except via the setting of taxes. Edicts cannot directly mandate the movement of Ducal armies or spending of Ducal budgets. They could conceivably try to do this - e.g. asking a Duke to help out somewhere. But Dukes can always defy the wishes of the Reichstag on the movement of their armies or spending of their budgets. Dukes would do so at their peril. Dukes cannot defy the taxman, however, and if unhappy with an uncooperative Duke, the Imperial Diet could impose punitive taxes.
3.4. Any declaration of war must be authorised by an Imperial edict. The Chancellor or any Duke is empowered to declare war on a non-allied army entering its lands.
*3.5. The rules of the game can be changed by a Noble Charter Amendments (2/3 majority required) except those marked with a *.
3.6. Tied edicts fail. If contradictory edicts are passed, the one with the most votes takes priority.
3.7. Edicts can only last for 5 turns.
3.8. Every 10 turns (or on the death or impeachment of the Chancellor), there is an election for the post of Chancellor. One noble one vote. Ties lead to a fresh ballot. A second tie is decided by seniority (avatar age). Voting is open for 2 days.
*3.9. The Chancellor can be impeached and removed from office by a 2/3 majority of the Imperial Diet.
*3.10. The Imperial Diet is presided over by the character controlling the Emperor. His rulings are final. The Prince can preside in the absence of the Emperor. The Emperor can call an emergency session of the Imperial Diet - freeze the game - at will. The Emperor can also resolve conflicts between players - for example, in a dispute over a division of the spoils - by decree. Although the Emperor will be a Duke, he will adjudicate ooc in an impartial manner. If he is personally involved in a dispute, he will delegate judgement to the Prince if the Prince is not party to a dispute.
4. Counts
4.1. Counts are suitable for players who would like to participate either do not have the game or do not want download savegames etc.
4.2. Counts have full voting rights in the Imperial Diet and are expected to make most of their contribution there. They should focus on debate and policymaking - since they do not download savegames, they should not get too involved in the minutae of orders etc.
4.3. However, a Count may be given a settlement by a Duke, who becomes the Count’s patron. The patron remains in formal control of the settlement. (He is the only one downloading the savegame and is best informed.) However, the Duke should try to accommodate the Count’s wishes. In return, the Count is expected to vote in accordance with the Duke’s wishes, unless given a free vote. The Count may always renounce his inheritance and seek a new patron if unsatisfied with the relationship; and the Duke may seek a new Count to run their settlement.
4.4. In addition, a Count may be given a settlement by the Empire although preference will be given to landless Dukes (players who will fight battles). The Chancellor (the office, not the man) then acts as the Duke’s patron. He has formal control of the settlement, but the Count can vote freely.
4.5. The movement of the Count’s avatar is decided by the Count’s patron or, if he has no patron, by the Chancellor. The Count may petition to be moved in a certain way, but lacking access to a savegame, this is neither expected nor binding. If frustrated, Counts may show their displeasure by voting or other political actions.
4.6. A Count can always become a Duke (if the player wants to start playing battles etc). A Duke can always become a Count (if the player has to be away for a while). But if the latter change is to be temporary, the Duke must identify another Duke to be steward of their lands.
4.7. A Count is normally given a general as an avatar. However, they could instead take on an agent (they can be “honorary Counts” sort of like the Bishops who sit in the UK House of Lords). I advise against players taking on roles of merchants, spies and assassins, they're all lost far too easily. However, I see no issues with a priestly, diplomatic or princess avatar. A Priestly avatar may actually be highly interesting if by chance the player actually finds himself sitting on the Papal throne.
5. Inter-character relations
5.1. Players are expected to role-play their avatars - act according to their stats and traits. For example, loyal generals should cooperate with the Consul. Chivalrous generals should cooperate with other nobles and be merciful with enemies (the player fighting the battle gets to decide what to do with prisoners, but any ransoms go to the Imperial treasury). Generals with high dread may be less amenable with other nobles and should be merciless with enemies. Pious generals should build religious buildings and agitate to go on crusades.
5.2. In the mid-term session of the Imperial Diet (only), the Chancellor receives bonus votes equal to half the Emperor’s authority, rounded up. This is to help them see through their agenda.
5.3. Nobles may enter binding contracts with each other. These should be posted in the Noble commands thread and agreed to by all sides. The Chancellor must enforce these contracts and there can be no reneging. Possible contracts include but are not limited to trades (e.g. men for florins) and loans (with a mutually agreed rate of interest and duration).
5.4. When a Duke dies, he will simply choose a spare avatar as an heir and continue to play with that land. If there is no spare avatar, the Chancellor will manage the Dukedom as a separate entity until one becomes available.
5.5. Ducal armies may work together to take a province. It is up to player to allow the borrowing of their armies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucjan
Example 1 - Metz is heavily fortified by the French, the Duke of Staufen thinks with some help from Innsbruck he can take Metz. The Duke of Innsbruck agrees to lend the Duke of Staufen an additional 10 units (which still operate under Innsbruck's income, as the troops are not loan, not sale) This boosts Staufen's army significantly and the Duke of Staufen then controls these units until Metz falls, at which time they return to the Duke of Innsbruck's control, and the Duke of Staufen-Metz gives the Duke of Innsbruck whatever it was he wanted in exchange for the army loan, lets say the agreement was the first 3 turns worth of income from Metz go to Innsbruck in exchange for the army loan.
Example 2 - The Duke of Nuremburg and the Duke of Prague both have a ducal army in Stettin, both have just taken out equally sized Danish armies. Both are poised to besiege Stettin. This is a dilemma that is up to the two dukes to work out between each other. Or the Emperor may step in and use his power of decree to say that no matter who takes Stettin, Stettin will become Imperial Territory until the next edict session, at which point the conflict will be resolved in a vote.
5.6. When offered a guild, the Chancellor can use his discretion over whether to accept (I don't think we can save at this point). Dukes may specify in advance which guilds they would or would not want accepted - the Chancellor should honour those wishes, but these instructions must be clearly posted as standing orders.
5.7. Dukes cannot buy, borrow or receive troops from Imperial settlements; they cannot enter contracts with the Chancellor to borrow or gift money from Imperial assets etc. Imperial assets are strictly ringfenced for Imperial use (exception: edicts can transfer Imperial assets; this rule 5.7 is about private trades not extending to include Imperial settlements; it is not to limit edicts). But this is asymmetric - Dukes can gift or lend the Empire troops or money (e.g. in a crisis). They cannot receive payment or interest for such actions though (again a specific edict might include a quid pro quo and that would allowed; this is about private trades).
Originally Posted by Lucjan
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