M2 HRE Test OOC Thread

[Braden]

and my main problem is that I'm 36 and haven't done Algebra for 20 years!!

Anyway, hope this test goes well as I'm aiming for a new PC in about 10 months time.

[Lucjan]

send me a pm with one of your problems I'll see if I can help when I wake up in a few hours.

[Braden]

...it's ok. I don't think its something that I should be using the forum for and besides...

...why spread my misery?

(hmmm...might send you one anyway )

[Lucjan]

Good luck with that, either way.

[Tamur]

on the knights you wanted, I suggested that we formalise contracts in the orders phase. So you could type something like:

"Contract Vienna 1: Duke Leopold offers Duke Otto X florins for one unit of mailed knights, to be trained immediately."

And I would reply

"Contract Vienna 1: accepted."

And at the same time, I would give orders for the unit to be training.

Sounds ideal. I will do that from now on. And sorry for missing your post about formalising the contract, I think I lost it in the discussion of finances, etc.

I think the major problem with this PBEM for me so far has been clarity. Part of this is because of the crossover that's happened with the ooc/non-ooc thread(s), part is because we're simply working things out and there is a lot of discussion on non-clear points. At times I log on only to be pulled away a minute later, leaving threads marked as read but in reality unread, which hasn't helped.

Should inter-ducal contracts be haggled out in public? or should they be via in-character PMs?

[econ21]

I think the major problem with this PBEM for me so far has been clarity.

I know, but that's why I think this trial is such a good idea. It would be a major pain to have a full blown PBM with 12+ players be unclear. But hopefully we can hammer out the complexities and get something streamlined in this test.

Should inter-ducal contracts be haggled out in public? or should they be via in-character PMs?

Good question. I guess in the real thing we should use in-character PMs for bilateral issues, saving the deliberations for general issues. But in the trial I would prefer to use the in-character "deliberations" thread. Apart from anything else, it would be useful to see the kind of interactions that go on between other players so we might learn from them.

With contracts, you could always make an offer in the orders thread and I could accept or make a counter-offer. (We can keep editing our single orders post until Lucjan shouts "orders phase closed!")

[Tamur]

We can keep editing our single orders post until Lucjan shouts "orders phase closed!"

Eh, good point, had not thought of that. I was wondering where to put the formal language of a proposal, since it isn't actually an order until it's agreed to. But the possibility of edits (combined with the very definite "Starting Orders for turn 2" you mentioned earlier to Lucjan) would make it all very clear.

I'll give that a go now.

[Ignoramus]

I'm sorry I'll have to pull out of the test. I'm going away for a couple of weeks in a few days, and so I won't be able to participate. However, I do hope that I can contribute to the final version of rules. Will I be able to?

Also, when is the real thing starting?

[TinCow]

If needed, I will step in to fill a vacated spot.

[econ21]

I'll leave it to Lucjan to decide, but AFAIK, we do have Count Maximillian of Nuremburg unassigned. I offered him to FLYdude, but in his reply, he did not bite:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...8&postcount=16

Plus, we have the Crown Prince, who could perhaps be given Hamburg as his settlement.

[Lucjan]

Ok, I like the idea of the 1 post per player each turn in the orders thread. Continually edited as necessary until I yell "orders phase closed." So let's go with that.


As for your questions Ignoramus, no definate date on a full start time yet but you'd be welcome to join when it opens.

[econ21]

And is it ok for TinCow to join as Maximllian of Nuremburg? (sorry, I realise you have a lot on your plate, right now, Lucjan.)

[Lucjan]

Of course it is!

[StoneCold]

Lucjan, I am just reading through, but I thought there was going to be a provision that only dukes of castle can build forts or is that not going to be implemented?

[econ21]

Lucjan, I am just reading through, but I thought there was going to be a provision that only dukes of castle can build forts or is that not going to be implemented?

I did not put that in these trial rules, as I think it's just an extra complication and given the complexity of Ducal accounts, I think every simplification we can get is welcome. The rule aimed to address the balancing of castles and cities, but I don't think it gets to the heart of the problem. We can bear it in mind and think about the balancing problem throughout this trial.

[TinCow]

I am concerned about the lack of a reward for the Chancellor. In WOTS, being Consul meant you could fight many more battles with your avatar, thus gaining a great deal of influence and other positive traits. As far as I can tell, there is nothing here that makes the Chancellor position advantageous. Given the extremely complicated work (especially financial) required by the Chancellor position, I am afraid that we might have difficulty getting contenders for the position every 5 turns if we don't offer something in return.

From what we have seen so far, it appears that the ultimate power in this game will be wealth. This is a good thing, because it is VERY realistic, especially for the nobility of the time period. It also adds a very different aspect to differentiate it from WOTS. So, let's give some kind of monetary reward for the Chancellor.

So, here's my proposal:
The Chancellor is allowed to spend up to 1/3 of each turn's Imperial net profits on his own possessions. This amount will be known as the Chancellor's Purse. This is strictly limited to net profits and does not include any Imperial monies carried forward from a previous turn. Any monies from the Chancellor's Purse which are not spent by the Chancellor are immediately returned to the Imperial treasury; the monies do not belong to the Chancellor, they are simply made available to him for use if he should require them each turn. The Chancellor's Purse cannot be accessed by the Chancellor until his own Ducal funds reach 0.*

*The purpose of this last line is to make sure the Chancellor's Purse is used for 'extra' building, recruiting, or business, not used to allow the Chancellor to get free stuff every turn. In order to access it, the Chancellor will have to blow through all accumulated wealth, which may well be a bad thing.

Example of use:

Chancellor has Ducal income of 811. Chancellor's Purse is 400. Chancellor spends 600 on a grain exchange. Chancellor accesses Chancellor's Purse to pay for a merchant (cost 550). The remainder of the Ducal income (211) is spent on the merchant first, then the Chancellor's Purse is accessed to make up the remainder (339). If, the remaining 61 in the Chancellor's Purse is unspent, it is immediately available for Imperial purchases that turn and becomes carried over monies if unspent by anyone.

[Tamur]

Great suggestion TC, I will agree entirely with this. I had wondered if Lucjan's feeling of success on the accounting front was payment enough.

[Lucjan]

Tamur, *speaks in ominous emperor palpatine-ish tone* Do no doubt how easily I can be amused. OOH! SHINY RED BALL!


EDIT - As for the judgement on this, I'll leave it up to the general concensus.

[Strappy Horse]

I agree with a financial reward for the Chancellor. High offices were often accompanied with a substantial reward.

I think we should keep it simple though, just an extra income, with the saved florins remaining in the ducal treasury seems fine with me.

Some more things about the role of the emperor, historically Kings travelled alot through their lands, 'honouring' their dukes with a prolonged visit on the duke's costs ofcourse.
This way they could keep their lords in check a bit, mostly by draining his financial scources to pay for the royal entourage.

This might be an interesting idea for this pbem as well. Let the Duke who's hosting the Emperor pay for the bodyguard upkeep.
I am not yet sure how it plays out, or if it gives the Emperor too much power?
What do you think about this?

[Tamur]

I like the idea of visiting to honour someone from a gameplay perspective. This could be extended of course to dukes visiting other dukes, or a cardinal visiting a town, etc. And it is very true that hosts footed the bill for anyone who happened to come calling of high rank.

However, with the financial realm already a bit complex, I hesitate to add another financial rule that the Chancellor would need to be aware of and enforce each round. It's not completely out of the question, but I think we will need to be cautious when adding financial rules.

[Lucjan]

Lets take note of that then and come back to it later on, when everything financially is more definately stable.

[TinCow]

If we want something far less complex for the Chancellor, we can simply give him a salary. Something like 200 to 400 per turn from the Imperial income.

[Tamur]

Just a quick note here: weekends are always fairly bad for me to participate due to time with the kids' activities, etc (lots of snow, skiing season has starting up here).

I did at least want to say that I've noted the rebels and would like to make an agreement with at least one other Duke to attack together, even if it is next turn.

However, if this turn needs to be completed by tomorrow (given the 48 hour limit), I won't be able to fight any battles. So if no one else can commit troops to the battle, I would like the sergeants to avoid the rebels for now and move to Vienna in whatever way is possible. If, on the other hand, some other Duke wishes to join forces with me, I will send out both of my spear militia and one unit of archers (but not Leopold) to fight the rebels, and whomever has sent reinforcements can control the battle, including my units.

Sorry for the brief and sketchy orders, but I've got to be running!

[Lucjan]

I looked into it, and troops from Vienna couldn't reach the rebel army until the second turn anyway. I'll have the sargeants avoid them and go around, we'll deal with the rebels in the deliberations.

[TinCow]

The rebels on on my territory and I am interested in disposing of them, but I can't do it what my current garrison and I do not want to hire more troops for a couple more turns yet. I will certainly help dispose of them and I'll even take responsibility for the battle myself, but I need time to develop Nuremburg before I start increasing my military upkeep.

[Strappy Horse]

Just noticed that the free upkeep units only count for the ones you can recruit in your city. So for the Dukes among us with militia spearmen in their army, the most economical building at this time is to build a barracks (1200 florins), and save 250-375 florins per turn on upkeep.

[Lucjan]

I thought you all knew that.

[Strappy Horse]

Hehe, I never paid much attention to it, I just noticed that sometimes spear militia were free of upkeep, while at other times I had to pay them.

[Lucjan]

Just for the record, the way cities work in regards to free upkeep is that any unit stationed in the city that the city is able to recruit, can remain there as a garrison unit free of upkeep charge, up to the number specified under the cities walls description. If they leave the city they start costing upkeep. I believe this applies to any units that the city can build itself. So any spear militia, ranged militia, even the merchant cavalry militia, once constructable in your city, become upkeep free so long as they don't leave the city.

[TinCow]

Are we positive that it applies to anything the city can build? I'm almost certain that in the games I have played, artillery units and the Venetian 'standard' unit did not get free upkeep. I was under the impression that only units with the word "Militia" in their title could get free upkeep, and then only when the city could build them.