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Thread: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

  1. #1

    Default My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    Hi, I've been playing the English for a while and I'm having some problems withstanding Mongol and French cavalry attacks.

    The problem is, I don't really have anything to counter the cavalry with - aside from other cavalry. Levy and militia spearmen are too weak and all the different variations of billmen suck - their defence values are ridiculous, no bonus against cavalry and they haven't even got a special formation. I once threw a unit of billmen into a crowded melee (castle fight) and they all perished without killing a single enemy soldier... LOL

    But anyway, according the the unit roster in the custom battle screen the English are supposed to have access to armoured sergeants as an early unit - but I haven't seen them in the campaign game. I've checked the building browser and according to that there are no English buildings that produce them...?

    Has anybody found the English armoured sergeants in the campaign yet?

    And by the way, while we're at it - how do I get a woodsmen's guild?
    By building farms, perhaps?

  2. #2
    Guest Dayve's Avatar
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    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    Personally i find it absolutely pathetic that England hasn't got a single spear unit to counter cavalry with... If this was intended then someone at CA didn't do their job properly.

  3. #3
    Prussian Musketeer Member Faenaris's Avatar
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    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    Well, I think England doesn't have a spear unit because they wanted to differentiate the factions in the campaign. Then again, Billmen are supposed to be your cavalry killers, but they fail miserably.

    Then again, Spear Militia with Max upgrade (heavy chain mail) can take a charge. You just gotta swarm the cavalry once they are stationary.

    EDIT: The Woodsmen guild: I think you need to have castle that has no guilds and that keeps training archers and archers (nothing else). In the end, you'll get it.
    Last edited by Faenaris; 11-26-2006 at 16:52.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    Merc spearmen are equals to armoured seargents. These are available from the start. Also, use stakes on your longbowmen. These stop cav charges cold and even infantry have a hard time getting through. Levy spears and spear militia can soak up cav charges in mass as well.

    Higher tier longbows are also capable melee fighters.

  5. #5
    Guest Dayve's Avatar
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    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    That's not the point though is it. Archers are there to fire arrows, not to fight cavalry. Wooden stakes are there to protect the archers, but the cavalry doesn't always charge into them. Levy spearmen don't do the job well enough, upgraded or not. They may stop a cavalry charge, but they don't exactly destroy the unit.

    Billmen... Don't even get me started. I will never recruit a unit of billmen again. As England i replaced the 6 or so spear militia units in Caen with billmen for defence... The Danes attacked with a tiny force of archer militia and spear militia, and my 6 units of billmen got absolutely pummelled and i lost Caen, they killed all my billmen, and my billmen inflicted less than 200 casualties... On levy archers and spearmen... And to send billmen against cavalry, any kind of billmen, is similar to throwing an icecube into a fire...

    It don't last very long.

    England needs sergeants... There's no two ways about it, and there's no way anybody can defend the decision not to give England spearmen, because England had spearmen.

  6. #6
    blaaaaaaaaaarg! Senior Member Lusted's Avatar
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    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    The main problem with billmen is that their animations seem bugged so they hardly ever attack in a melee, which severly weakens them.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    The point is that you can do well even without the armoured sarges.

    Merc spearmen do quite well, just a tad expensive. Levy spears etc. are just to pin. Always use your swordsmen/cav to flank and destroy the unit.

    I just about never rely on my main infantry line to kill, just to hold the enemy in place so I can flank and crush.

  8. #8

    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    Well, seems I'm not the only one missing the sergeants.
    I will have to rely on mercs instead, I guess, and give my levies some heavy armor upgrades.
    One thing about merc spearmen, though: There's none of them in the middle east where I'm fighting the Mongols right now. Unless you go on a crusade and pick up some of those crusader sergeants (they're pretty badass, though - best spearmen in the game it seems).

    I must admit I haven't really used the ability to plant stakes that much - seems I'm mostly on the offensive and as you can only plant stakes during the setup phase, well....
    But perhaps I should try and utilise that ability a bit more - English archers having the ability to plant stakes is probably part of the reason CA didn't give the English proper spear units anyway.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    Some times you can tempt the AI into attacking your lines even if they are on defense. Deploy as far forward as you can helps.

    Crusader sarges solve the problem on crusades. If you don't rely on spears to kill and just hold, militia/levy works fine with a decent general (so they don't break).

  10. #10

    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    England relies on longbowmen and stakes - always try to lure the enemey on to you and the levy spearmen will work fine. Deploy them deep and they can both withstand cavalry and destroy them. Also use the schiltron as this is very effective against cavalry.

    The AI will try its utmost to avoid your stakes - use it to your advantage - plant a schiltron at either end to avoid cavalry flank attacks and your heavy foot behind.

    Your billmen are useful purely for flanking attacks (not sure if this is intended but...) so park them to the rear of the your heavy foot - then rush them out, round the side and into the flanks of the enemy - they will tear armoured units to shreds in such instances (but not if you "blob" them up with other units)

    English tactics are the same for virtually every encounter and you are utterly reliant on longbows doing your primary damage and, to be fair, the only chance the AI usually has is either a flank attack or a head-on bum-rush en-mass.

    Things NOT to do:

    Dont use levy spearmen in long thin lines - they get slaughtered (deploy deep)
    Dont use billmen for ANY defensive role, especially walls - they completely and utterly suck defensively (even the heavies).
    Never NOT plant stakes, even when attacking - they will ALWAYS give you somewhere to fall back to if everything goes totally titsup
    NEVER run your own cavalry through stakes unless it is absolutely dead-on-dick through them from behind in a straight line (otherwise you will slaughter your own cavalry)

    Tips:

    Always defend walls, where possible, with a unit that has a shield - you dont get formation bonuses on walls or in the streets (it seems) so shield-bearing units are always going to be the toughest in those situations - a schiltron of levy spearmen in a narrow street can be very impressive. For walls ideally use heavy foot with shield and sword (or shield and hammer such as Heavy Venetian foot)

    If defending a bridge use double rows of stakes either side of the road (you cant place stakes on roads) - plant spearmen in between them to block the road and back them up with heavy foot. The second row of stakes acts as a fallback position and will stop mass cavalry just pushing though your lines - they will also disrupt any foot formations.

    Dont "blob up" - it appears there may well be big negatives for blobbing in MTW2

    Your Retinue (and to some extent Yeoman) archers are damn fine reserves in a tight brawl - dont treat them as "woosey" archers, they aren't.

    Sherwood Foresters are surprisingly good unit in mellee also

    Plant stakes behind castle gates when defending a town/city (rush the longbow unit onto the wall when you start the battle) - place spearmen behind the stakes and to the sides - watch the AI slaughter its cavalry if they ram open the gates!


    (You get the woodsmans guild by recruiting archers - always recruit just archers from one location and you will *always* be offered that guild at that city/castle. If you recruit all sorts of troops from one spot it is pot-luck as to what you get as a guild (if anything)

    The Schiltron formation WORKS, so try it!
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  11. #11

    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    If you look at the Description of Billman they only have a defense of 5, which is very weak. But have an attack of 13. Billman are an Offensive unit, not a Defensive one.

  12. #12

    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    Any unit that lacks a shield is obviously meant for offensive roles. Aside from pikemen.

    Heavy Billmen can take on most infantry units so long as they charge and are on the offensive head on.

    There seems to be a problem with their animation when it comes to cavalry.

    Technically speaking though, Billmen are effective against cavalry, especially armored cavalry but their not for the hold the line chage, their the after bog down. Hopefully the patch will fix their correct speed, surely CA hasn't missed this.

    But then again you got dismounted english knights which are techincally the same thing but with higher stats so there's no point for billmen.

    However, the english longbows are excellent reserves, especially with their AP ability. Always use them to their fullest potential.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    Note that you should use and abuse your armoured swordsmen. They are the finest infantry unit the English have (super low upkeep). Also, they are better than billmen and dismounted English knights due to the cav attacking bug the latter experience.

  14. #14

    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    The bug is spoiling my English experience, but in a field battle, spear militia, longbows, backed up by a few armoured swordsmen and cavalry is more than enough to slaughter everybody. The killing system has been changed from Rome, where a unit of peasant would be most lucky to kill a single person from an Urban cohort; even peasants can kill a few Dismounted Gothic Knights now. Anyway, why do you want to put your expensive heavy infantry in the front line anyway, since cavalry can kill the entire unit with a single 'perfect charge'?

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    Join the ICLADOLLABOJADALLA! Member IrishArmenian's Avatar
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    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    More than likely, this will get patched, but I would say, deal with it. There must be a tactical way around this. Use what little time the levy spearmen give you to wheel around and charge the back of the formations. Maybe udgrade your towns.

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  16. #16

    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    i used alot of merc spearmen in my english campaign.

  17. #17

    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    I've managed to get around the uselessly bugged units and get by with the nearly hopeless spearmen as a hedge unit but what really chaps my arse is the duplication of low end militia in castle and town. Nearly identical stats, cost and upkeep but different name and different unit card.

    So, instead of having alternative unit to build it's just another management PITA when you have the 2 types mixed in an army.

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    Mojito maker Member Jimmytwohand's Avatar
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    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    I need to second the levy spearmen/schiltron combo. I experimented with levys in the front line to stop any cav charge and they were slaughtered so gave up. Later i tried the schiltrom and they held up very well. They will still take casualties but as long as they are upgraded and snug behind some stakes they seem to mow down any cav that try to tackle them head on. Levys/ armoured swordsmen and a swarm of retinue longbowmen with stakes out is a very powerful and versatile force. Im not moaning about it anymore. The English strengths more than make up for their weak area.

  19. #19
    Heavy Metal Warlord Member Von Nanega's Avatar
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    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    Those Billmen in my experience are kind of useless. Personally I think if they are fixed with patch they will become the offensive unitb they are supposed to be. Levy spearmen do the trick and I figure lots of lossess for them in battle. One of the things I do for the levies, I combine units after combat so that over time they get the experience they need for later days. then I train up green ones and fold them into the battle line.
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    I wanna be a real boy! Member chunkynut's Avatar
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    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    Quote Originally Posted by katank
    Note that you should use and abuse your armoured swordsmen. They are the finest infantry unit the English have (super low upkeep). Also, they are better than billmen and dismounted English knights due to the cav attacking bug the latter experience.
    This was my route too, just completed my first English grand campaign and the Armoured Swordsmen are the main body of your troops with dismounted English Knights and Billmen (if you bother) for flanking manouvers. I use 2 levy spears on either flank to basically die, or slow down any cav/infantry trying to flank me. Added to the massive killing power of the archers this makes any unit that comes within spitting distance of your men run away at the first sign a unit may engage them, I've had mass routes from 1 armoured swordsmen charging 1 of 4 spanish swordsmen after they had walked through my arrows.

    Armoured Swordsmen will fight to the last man, and so will spear militia and levy spearmen when in schiltom formation. This makes these spear units perfect for city defense.

    Mercenaries are your best friends especially since you can retrain to bring the unit size back up to full. And they aren't Englishmen, who cares if they die?

    Lastly the English not having Armoured Spears is NOT a BUG. It is a balancing change for MP not a SP problem.

  21. #21

    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    Some great advice on tactics, here guys - thanks alot. There's definitely a few things here I haven't tried.
    Last night I was close to pulling out of the holy lands as the Mongol Horde combined with jihads from Egypt and Turkey were just making the experience too expensive. The costs were beginning to hold back development in my settlements in western Europe.
    But armed with some of your tactics (and Sherwood archers soon, I hope) I think I will give Kingdom of Heaven one last try...!

    And to round things off: I don't really mind the English not having a true spear unit. It forces you to try different tactics and thats cool enough. Makes the game last longer.

    Cheers!

  22. #22
    Member Member WilliVonBill's Avatar
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    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    Well... if you don't mind using an "enhancement" <cough> cheat code <cough>...
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    then you can have armored sergeants in your English campaign.


    For a North American keyboard, press the tilde "~" key to open medshell. Type in the following syntax...

    create_unit London "Armored Sergeants" 2 9 3 3

    ... this will create 2 units of armored sergeants with 9 experience, 3 armor, and 3 weapons upgrades in London. Those appear to be the max values for experience, armor, and weapons. You can use what ever values (or no values for that matter) that you wish. You can create units in any city or castle you want. Just substitute London for say... Gaza, or Nottingham, or whatever. Until we get the unpacker and are able to tweak unit production, this is the only way for the English to get Armored Sergeants in the campaign. Oh, and by the way, did you know that there is a hidden English unit??? Use the same syntax as above, but intsead of "Armored Sergeants" type in "Mounted Longbowmen". That's right. English Longbowmen on horseback.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Cheetah's Avatar
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    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    Billmen are neither useless nor bugged, they just work differently. Use them against spears and swords and they will do fine. On the top of them they are dirt cheap. I understand that this might be counter-intuitive as billmen in MTW were one of the best anti-av units, thus players expect the same form MTW2 billmen. Well, it is not the same but it works
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    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheetah
    Billmen are neither useless nor bugged, they just work differently. Use them against spears and swords and they will do fine. On the top of them they are dirt cheap. I understand that this might be counter-intuitive as billmen in MTW were one of the best anti-av units, thus players expect the same form MTW2 billmen. Well, it is not the same but it works
    Ahh... but have you even seen them in combat with cavalry? Go and load up a custom battle with them and Dismounted English Knights against any cavalry. I even dare you to fight Hobilars or some other superweak cavalry.

    Trust me, if you don't charge the cavalry, they will slaughter you.

    Why? Because neither Billmen nor the DEKs (heh) will ever attack the cavalrymen at all.
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  25. #25
    Member Member Zeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    My recommendation would be to hire some Welsh Longbowmen and under their special formations they can place sharp wooden stakes in the ground. You can find a picture of what these look like on a google image search for medieval 2.
    It is good only to die, if you die a warrior.

  26. #26
    Sardonic Antipodean Member Trithemius's Avatar
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    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayve
    That's not the point though is it. Archers are there to fire arrows, not to fight cavalry. Wooden stakes are there to protect the archers, but the cavalry doesn't always charge into them.
    What? Are you trying not to find a solution here Dayve?

    While I admit that it does seem pretty odd that the English don't get any decent spears early on there does seem to be a solution here. If you field mostly archer forces, and have them put down stakes, and then wait for the enemy then their cavalry is probably going to try and charge them at some point.

    Admittedly, this is not really that great when you are the attacker in a battle, but that might be the reason that the English adopted tactical defence while on the strategic offence. Perhaps try playing with your faction's army, rather than against it?
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  27. #27
    Senior Member Senior Member Cheetah's Avatar
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    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kraxis
    Ahh... but have you even seen them in combat with cavalry? Go and load up a custom battle with them and Dismounted English Knights against any cavalry. I even dare you to fight Hobilars or some other superweak cavalry.

    Trust me, if you don't charge the cavalry, they will slaughter you.

    Why? Because neither Billmen nor the DEKs (heh) will ever attack the cavalrymen at all.
    I know that they do not work vs cavs. That is why I suggested to use them vs spears/swords, and that is why I wrote that it might be counter-intuitive. And, uhm, that is why I wrote that the system (RPS) works differently this time.
    It might be disappointing that billmen cannot kill a bloody horsemen but they are not useless and more likely it is not a bug. It seems to be more of a different RPS system. You dont have to like it of course ...
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  28. #28
    Senior Member Senior Member Cheetah's Avatar
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    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    And to stay on topic: militia spearmen can do wonders in great numbers One or two wont help much but 5 or 6 can beat enemy units just by shear numbers. Of course when the enemy has equal number of better quality troops then it wont help, but IMO stakes+mercenary spears should solve your problem in that case.
    Lional of Cornwall
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  29. #29
    Discipulus et Magister Member Lord Condormanius's Avatar
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    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    Quote Originally Posted by briny_norman
    the different variations of billmen suck - their defence values are ridiculous, no bonus against cavalry and they haven't even got a special formation.
    They might as well be carrying a rake. I don't use them against cavalry because they dont have shields, hence the low defense rating.
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  30. #30
    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Default Re: My kingdom for an armoured sergeant (English)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheetah
    I know that they do not work vs cavs. That is why I suggested to use them vs spears/swords, and that is why I wrote that it might be counter-intuitive. And, uhm, that is why I wrote that the system (RPS) works differently this time.
    It might be disappointing that billmen cannot kill a bloody horsemen but they are not useless and more likely it is not a bug. It seems to be more of a different RPS system. You dont have to like it of course ...
    There is a difference in not being anti-cav and not being able to kill cav at all.

    Even archers can kill cav in melee. So obviously something IS wrong, and obviously it IS a bug. Especially considering this affects quite a few units (Varangians, DEKs, Dismounted Huscarles and other twohanded axemen).
    If the Billmen could attack cavalry we would see a nice result even without any specific bonus, as they are AP and have a high attack. That would chop down heavy cav easily. So personally I'm far from niffed at the loss of a specific anti-cav bonus.

    But they are without a doubt bugged.
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