The plague is insane!

[Werner]

And no, it isnt random, it hits certain places at certain times in every campaign.

The black death isn't random, regular plague is I think...

[Zoltan]

Yes, it's every bit as bad as it was in the history and then some. I had carved a large european empire as France, swallowing most of the milanese, Dane and HRE provinces (serves them well for keeping refusing my peace offers), and then managed to buy alliances with most of the remaining christian powers, thereby ushering an unprecedented era of peace and prosperity for christendom. I had built up an mazing economy and was raking in huge amounts from trade accross the mediterranean.

I was setting out on a glorious project to reconquer the holy lands from the Mongols, when all my plans were brought to a screeching halt by the Black Death. All trade ceased practically overnight, my economy went down the drain and then in the red at a frightening rate. I had to disband all armies that did not serve an immediate defensive purpose. Not a single settlement was spared, even the military outposts I had on the mediterranean islands. I reckon I lost almost 50% of my population : at the worst of it I had 60.000 people die in a single turn, and it lasted damn long!

Only 2 of my nobles survived the onslaught, but that's mostly due to a move I did right before it hit. I found most of my young nobles had gone soft from city life (and from having obscene amounts of gold lying in my treasury) and were picking up "crazy" or "corrupt" kind of traits. Probably every single one of my nobles had at least 1 mistress. So I decided "to hell with it" and put them all (13 nobles!) in a cog headed to mongol waters. I just spared my mad king and a couple ex-crusader generals. Also gifted away all my extra gold to the byzantines in an exchange for an alliance few staging posts for my aforementioned "reconquest" project. Black death couldnt have come at a worse time.

I still hurt just thinking about it, and my plans were set back by about 30 turns! ouch! If CA wanted to restitute the apocalyptic / "the end is nigh" feeling of the period, the job is almost too well done.

[Werner]

Also gifted away all my extra gold to the byzantines in an exchange for an alliance few staging posts for my aforementioned "reconquest" project. Black death couldnt have come at a worse time.

Good read, although how in the world did you ever get an AI power to sell regions to you? I sware the AI is hopelessly retarded in this game. I'll offer sh*t tons of money for an alliance and they'll refuse and then the next turn they will come and offer me an alliance for free. Same goes for offering money as a gift, I've had them deny a gift of over 10,000 florines.

[Quillan]

It takes a lot of money for them to sell a province. Try 50,000 to 100,000 florins a province. I've rarely amassed that much money, as by the time I'm making enough income to save up that much, I've got lots of provinces to needing new buildings. However, you can secure alliances and such with a payment thrown in. I managed to convince the Polish to marry their princess (a non-start princess who actually had 3 charm!) to my single faction heir, but it cost me a 6000 florin dowry (wasn't it the father of the BRIDE who paid the dowry?!?) and 500 per turn for 5 turns to secure the deal.

[Werner]

Thats the other thing I have a hard time understanding, merrying Princesses. It seems like every princess I run into has "0" charm rating. I don't think I've ever seen a non-start princess with more than 1 charm rating. Whats the point of merrying her? Besides, my ally factions seem incapable of letting me merry them, it always says "Very Demanding" when I try. Wouldn't it be good to merry your princess to my faction leader?

[Wizzie]

Concerning buying regions:

I've only every bought one region so far, and that was while I was playing a Venician campaign (fitting that the merchant civ buys their first conquest ). The major pain playing as Venice is that the HRE have Bolgna, splitting your empire in two if you take rebel Florence early on. Then they end up attacking you for sending various troops and generals between Florence and Venice (over their territory). So to remedy it once and for all I purchased the duchy of Bologna for 6000 florins on the first turn - that is 1000 florins per turn for 6 turns. Went down a treat, as I just had to stick a fort in the pass in the alps, and after booting Milan and Sicily off my peninsula, I now have "Fortress Italy", with forts blocking all points of access through the alps

[Captainrave]

In my campaign I have about 50 provinces as England when the black death struck...came at a bad time, being attacked by both the turks and mongols...Its nearly passed, but i think its killed about 300000-400000 people.

In my opinion plagues happen to frequently...usually have at least one province per turn plagued...I guess its because they are at the limit of the number of people they can hold resulting in lots of squalor.

[IrishArmenian]

In my Russian Campaign, Vilnius got hit by the plague, though most survived. I'm waiting for it to take hold on my Polish enemies, so that I may wait for them to die and as soon as the Plauge is gone, attack. I currently have 3 spies with the plague, running around and spreading it. One for Poland, one for Denmark and one for Hungary.

[Werner]

I currently have 3 spies with the plague, running around and spreading it. One for Poland, one for Denmark and one for Hungary.

I love the idea and currently plan on putting it into action. As I said I have the Spanish attacking me on the western front and relations dropping with the Hungarians in the East. I have a feeling I am going to get back stabbed by another nation before this is all over with, so I don't mind having a couple spys running around spreading the plague as I see fit. The could be the best weapon of all time!!

One question though, does the plague spread to cities just from having your spies running through the country side?

[Lochar]

I finally encounter the Black Death. Man it is horrible, I lost 2 kings, a few cardinals and right now -19k in the hole, which means I cant repair or retrain anything.

What really sucks tho is Milan is coming out good as all the cardinal deaths helped them control the Papacy and they are my enemies. I would have had a good chance of winning last election if not for this.

But it does throw a challenge and sproughts rebellions and I am finally coming out of it but its gonna be a few turns before I see black in my treasury which is hurting my diplomatic ties.

[Captain Fishpants]

The impact of the real Black Death in Europe cannot be underestimated - most of us will never see anything a tenth as bad, even as global warming bites. I suggest that if you're interested in seeing just how awful the plague was, and what the long term effects were, you could do a lot worse than read Norman Cantor's superb book, In the Wake of the Plague: The Black Death and the World It Made. You can find it here, if you're interested: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wake-Plague-...e=UTF8&s=books

[dopp]

The plague spreads westwards over the course of several turns, but it also ends very fast (the end might be scripted). Mine lasted an average of 2 turns per settlement, which is around 5-6 turns total. Normal plagues last quite a bit longer. Quarantine all your cities and pray that AI spies don't wander around and spread it to settlements that have already recovered. I lost 30% of my population during that time, but all my characters and armies were in the field and thus spared.

[misima]

Frankly saying I didnt notice this HORRIBLE BLACK PLAGUE.
No of course I noticed that somehow something bad going on. Generals dying armies melting and stuff. But it didnt ruin any of my war plans or my economy.

Playing on VH/VH.

[Rothe]

I think one way to keep the plague from spreading is to keep spies stationed in each settlement. This keeps away enemy agents which reduces the spreading effect they cause.

With the regular plague I often spread it with spies, but the downside is that sometimes it backfires as I get the plague again after I got rid of it by quaranteening my settlements. One big no-no is fighting with AI armies in the area where you took the plague to. I once killed off one of my best generals when I sent him to fight the milanese and got back my own plague...

[TB666]

I have had the black death.
Man it was horrible.
It killed off almost all of my royal family, I had 3 left when the plague was over.
My economy went from a nice 20000/turn to a -50000/turn and it didn't take many turns before my treasury was empty and I was suddenly in debt thus impossible for me to retrain my troops.
After maybe 5 turns the worst part of the plague stopped(still had a few characters infected but the cities and castles were clean) and my economy kicked in again.

Also when the black death comes you get a video of it.
That's how you tell the difference between the regular plague and the real deal.

[misima]

Guys how do u play?
Plague strikes at 1300++, at that time I have lots of provinces and income more than 100 000 per turn, I didnt really feel the plague.
In my games plague for AI much worse than for me.

My economy doing well, i never go to minus. Ppl dying yes, but its not really a problem. Army duying, but its allow to make more money per turn. Family dying this is bad, but Im making new generals from succesfull captains. Plague is nothing really.

[geala]

The plague is not that terrible. It hit me in my two campaigns quite exactly in the year 1348 and sent economy downwards but without any real damage. It went away faster than it had come. I did not loose a single province. I was in depth for 5 or 6 turns but maybe AI was too. As HRE at that time I was in war with 4 factions, as Spain (current campaign) with 8 factions (and I wanted a more peacefully economy build-up game as Spain, buhuhuu) but that did not bother.
So I think it's a nice feature. And I got the feeling that after the plague more money comes in (?).

[MadKow]

The Black Death is estimated to have caused the death of roughly 1/4 to 1/3 of the population of Europe. In the aftermath there was a economical recovery of sorts, with people labour being more valued. There were basically more resources for everyone.
Another interesting side offect was a strong recovery of natural resources, namely flora and fauna, under pressure from the new populous burgs. This effect was so strong that some climate scholars point the reduction of human activity and forest depletion as a cause for a mini-ice age that struck europe the following years.
It took Europe 250 years to reach the population levels pre-epidemics.

[Bongaroo]

Playing as France: I had what we would consider modern day france and a few German provinces as well as Milan destroyed. My royal family had grown huge, I'm sure I had at least 20 nobles. After 6 turns of the Black Death I had 3 nobles left. It left me in shambles. I was barely able to hold my current provinces let alone mount an attack on anyone. This campaign is getting low on turns till the end and I'm thinking I'm going to have to start rampagining through Europe to get 45 provinces.

Black Death really had me sweating it out each time I hit the end turn button, fearing whose death's would be reported next.

[Slaists]

What happened in Asia at the same time? Did any of the large Asian civilizations (China, Japan, India, Persia) face similar extinctions due to the Black Plague?

The Black Death is estimated to have caused the death of roughly 1/4 to 1/3 of the population of Europe. In the aftermath there was a economical recovery of sorts, with people labour being more valued. There were basically more resources for everyone.
Another interesting side offect was a strong recovery of natural resources, namely flora and fauna, under pressure from the new populous burgs. This effect was so strong that some climate scholars point the reduction of human activity and forest depletion as a cause for a mini-ice age that struck europe the following years.
It took Europe 250 years to reach the population levels pre-epidemics.

[Shahed]

The impact of the real Black Death in Europe cannot be underestimated - most of us will never see anything a tenth as bad, even as global warming bites. I suggest that if you're interested in seeing just how awful the plague was, and what the long term effects were, you could do a lot worse than read Norman Cantor's superb book, In the Wake of the Plague: The Black Death and the World It Made. You can find it here, if you're interested: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wake-Plague-...e=UTF8&s=books

Thanks. The reviews look terrible ( I don't give them much value most of the time anyway). I'll check that book out, sounds like a good read to me.

I'd also like to say thank you for this awesome game. It is amazing how far you guys have come since STW. The evolution of the series and the success of your work is stunning.

Congratulations !

What happened in Asia at the same time? Did any of the large Asian civilizations (China, Japan, India, Persia) face similar extinctions due to the Black Plague

EDIT: New map from wiki.


About the Middle East....

Middle Eastern outbreak
The plague struck various countries in the Middle East during the pandemic, leading to serious depopulation and permanent change in both economic and social structures. The disease first entered the region from southern Russia. By autumn 1347, the plague reached Alexandria in Egypt, probably through the port's trade with Constantinople and ports on the Black Sea. During 1348, the disease travelled eastward to Gaza, and north along the eastern coast to cities in Lebanon, Syria and Palestine, including Asqalan, Acre, Jerusalem, Sidon, Damascus, Homs, and Aleppo. In 1348–49, the disease reached Antioch. The city's residents fled to the north, most of them dying during the journey, but the infection had been spread to the people of Asia Minor.

Mecca became infected in 1349. During the same year, records show the city of Mawsil (Mosul) suffered a massive epidemic, and the city of Baghdad experienced a second round of the disease. In 1351, Yemen experienced an outbreak of the plague. This coincided with the return of King Mujahid of Yemen from imprisonment in Cairo. His party may have brought the disease with them from Egypt.

and Asia...

Asian outbreak
The Central Asian scenario agrees with the first reports of outbreaks in China in the early 1330s. The plague struck the Chinese province of Hubei in 1334. During 1353–1354, more widespread disaster occurred. Chinese accounts of this wave of the disease record a spread to eight distinct areas: Hubei, Jiangxi, Shanxi, Hunan, Guangdong, Guangxi, Henan and Suiyuan (a historical Chinese province that now forms part of Hebei and Inner Mongolia), throughout the Mongol and Chinese empires. Historian William McNeill noted that voluminous Chinese records on disease and social disruption survive from this period, but no one has studied these sources in depth.

It is probable that the Mongols and merchant caravans inadvertently brought the plague from central Asia to the Middle East and Europe. The plague was reported in the trading cities of Constantinople and Trebizond in 1347. In that same year, the Genoese possession of Caffa, a great trade emporium on the Crimean peninsula, came under siege by an army of Mongol warriors under the command of Janibeg, backed by Venetian forces. After a protracted siege during which the Mongol army was reportedly withering from the disease, they might have decided to use the infected corpses as a biological weapon. The corpses were catapulted over the city walls, infecting the inhabitants.[3] The Genoese traders fled, transferring the plague via their ships into the south of Europe, from whence it rapidly spread. According to accounts, so many died in Caffa that the survivors had little time to bury them and bodies were stacked like cords of firewood against the city walls.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_death

It seems it reached the Middle East as well, but did it kill off as many as in Europe ?
How is the impact on the Middle East in game ?

And some people say games are not educational....

[Darkmoor_Dragon]

The impact of the real Black Death in Europe cannot be underestimated - most of us will never see anything a tenth as bad, even as global warming bites. I suggest that if you're interested in seeing just how awful the plague was, and what the long term effects were, you could do a lot worse than read Norman Cantor's superb book, In the Wake of the Plague: The Black Death and the World It Made. You can find it here, if you're interested: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wake-Plague-...e=UTF8&s=books

A book that is justifiably panned as being rather crap. (and it is: save your money {unlike me})

[Aenlic]

How is the impact on the Middle East in game ?

In my Moorish campaign, I took Arguin. Unfortunately it appears to have been suffering from the plague. As soon as I took it, my new governor and the imam with him both immediately contracted the plague and I noticed that the town also had the plague symbol. I didn't get a plague event notice, of course; because it apparently started when the town was still rebel. The next turn after taking the town, I did start getting the plague messages. When the plague finally subsided in the town, it was another turn before the plague left my general and imam.

[Jagger]

The impact of the real Black Death in Europe cannot be underestimated - most of us will never see anything a tenth as bad, even as global warming bites. I suggest that if you're interested in seeing just how awful the plague was, and what the long term effects were, you could do a lot worse than read Norman Cantor's superb book, In the Wake of the Plague: The Black Death and the World It Made. You can find it here, if you're interested: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wake-Plague-...e=UTF8&s=books

Bird Flu is very scary. Human mortality rates are around 50 percent. Let us just hope it quietly disappears rather than mutates the capability to spread easily among humans.

[andrewt]

I was rich when the plague hit me. I had to stop production of buildings mostly when it hit me and stopped troop production completely. When the plague hit the western part of my Venetian empire, my eastern holdings were about to recover already. The plague was only 2-3 turns.

The worst part for me was that I was battling the Mongols at the time. The huge stack I had in Iconium had the plague still 4-5 turns after the plague left all my settlements. I had to watch that uberstack (all elite units) dwindle down between the Mongols and the plague. I tried separating the general but the captain got the plague, too. The feeder stack I used to replenish that huge stack all had the plague for that long. I hired mercenaries and they got the plague, too. I had to build completely new stacks to further my conquest.