Rockets Hit Isreial

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Hey,




http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15894040/


Here we go again

[Marshal Murat]

Is it real?
is-re-i-al, all I need is a t.
Try to to spell correctly.

Anyway, I hope that Israel doesn't blow this ceasefire by invading anything again.

[Proletariat]

I hope Israel gets a bunch of rockets shot at it during this ceasefire and takes the high ground by not making a big deal out of it or anything.

All Israel needs is this emote for their neighbors

[Productivity]

Neither side is exactly innocent...

http://today.reuters.com/news/articl...1_%5bFeed%5d-2

Sad, sad region that one. If one can get beyond the blame and start acting with humanity there's hope. I'm not optimistic.

[Fragony]

God aren't they absolutily hopeless. Their desire for peace just isn't as strong as their need to kill. Give them their state and let them slaughter eachother, they like it too much so they will probably turn on eachother.

[yesdachi]

The Palestinians/Hamas need to stop firing rockets into Israel, problem solved.

…violence in Gaza that has killed 300 Palestinians, scores of them civilians, and five Israelis.

Look at that kill ratio, those rockets are doing a great job… of pissing off Israel. Does firing rockets at Israel do any good? Am I missing something here? What is the point in perpetuating a fight with a country they can never beat? Go tend your fields so that maybe you don’t have to be completely dependant on other countries.

[CrossLOPER]

The Palestinians/Hamas need to stop firing rockets into Israel, problem solved.


Look at that kill ratio, those rockets are doing a great job… of pissing off Israel. Does firing rockets at Israel do any good? Am I missing something here? What is the point in perpetuating a fight with a country they can never beat? Go tend your fields so that maybe you don’t have to be completely dependant on other countries.

Most people don't like it when they feel their country is being encroached upon.

[Proletariat]

JERUSALEM (AP) -- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert offered wide-ranging concessions if the Palestinians turn away from violence, saying Monday that they would be able to achieve an independent state in the West Bank and Gaza through real peace talks with Israel.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/....ap/index.html

These Israeli's just don't understand what a 'proportionate response' is, yet again

[Fragony]

Most people don't like it when they feel their country is being encroached upon.

That is one way to completily disregard the religious aspect of these attacks. Do not forget that Hamas and the Islamic Jihad are rabid fundie's that actually do want to drive the jews into the sea. A pretty popular sound there in poor innocent Palestina where people suffer so much. Both sides are completily nuts I might add, that whole area is one big psychotic episode on a plane.

[Kralizec]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/....ap/index.html

These Israeli's just don't understand what a 'proportionate response' is, yet again

...am I missing something? It sounds reasonable to me. Stop blowing us up, and we'll get you your own state

[Redleg]

Most people don't like it when they feel their country is being encroached upon.

The problem is that the Palenstine people have no nation to be encroached upon, and the last attempt to create a Palenstine state ended in the current wave of violence between Israel and the Palenstine people because of groups like the two that launched rockets once again into Israel.

Now which point of view of the history of Israel one wishes to take does not negate one simple fact in this instance. That the aggression after the announced ceasefire was not conducted by Israel.

Sadly it doesn't bode well, but maybe Israel will show restraint and not retaliate as the public statement seems to indicate.

[CrossLOPER]

That is one way to completily disregard the religious aspect of these attacks. Do not forget that Hamas and the Islamic Jihad are rabid fundie's that actually do want to drive the jews into the sea. A pretty popular sound there in poor innocent Palestina where people suffer so much. Both sides are completily nuts I might add, that whole area is one big psychotic episode on a plane.

I was referring to both sides, but I will not say I disagree with you.

The problem is that the Palenstine people have no nation to be encroached upon, and the last attempt to create a Palenstine state ended in the current wave of violence between Israel and the Palenstine people because of groups like the two that launched rockets once again into Israel.

Now which point of view of the history of Israel one wishes to take does not negate one simple fact in this instance. That the aggression after the announced ceasefire was not conducted by Israel.

Sadly it doesn't bode well, but maybe Israel will show restraint and not retaliate as the public statement seems to indicate.

I am so not going to bother arguing any part of this, favorably or otherwise.

[Ronin]

That is one way to completily disregard the religious aspect of these attacks. Do not forget that Hamas and the Islamic Jihad are rabid fundie's that actually do want to drive the jews into the sea. A pretty popular sound there in poor innocent Palestina where people suffer so much. Both sides are completily nuts I might add, that whole area is one big psychotic episode on a plane.

agreed.....and to add to that I might say that having visited the area personally that there isn´t anything there nice enought to fight over...at least in my opinion...

[Pannonian]

agreed.....and to add to that I might say that having visited the area personally that there isn´t anything there nice enought to fight over...at least in my opinion...

Quote from a British soldier serving in Palestine at the height of the Jewish-Arab rebellion that eventually resulted in us being kicked out of there.

"They say this is the land of milk and honey. As far as I can see it's 12 men to a tin and no bloody bees."

[Dâriûsh]

Perhaps Israel has been too effective in killing all the middle men in the Hamas, so the body now attacks without the head.


Or perhaps it is an attempt by IJ and Fatah to undermine Haniyeh.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Hey,

um no. How about, Hamas and them stops provkoing Israel into attacking their neighbors and ploblem is settled.

[Redleg]

Or perhaps it is an attempt by IJ and Fatah to undermine Haniyeh.

This was my thought. Time will tell if it was an attempt at undermining or just a failure to get the information out and coordination of halting of all attacks.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Hypothetical:

Let us assume that Israel and the Palestinian Authority agree to a two state solution by ceding control of all territory South of the 32nd parallel. A separate contiguous Palestine is then established below that parallel. A regional commission chaired by Cyprus is then set up to adjudicate water rights among Lebanon, Israel, Syria, Palestine, and Jordan.

Would this bring peace?

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I doubt it unless you can Shut down Hamas and control the Palestinian Militatis..

[Productivity]

At this stage neither side can claim the moral high ground - both are deep in this mess and both are about as blameworthy as each other. For there to be peace there has to be a viable two state solution - given they are never going to agree and only one party has the ability to unilaterally institute that, it is what I would think Israel should do.

It's all well and good to say stop firing rockets into Israel and I agree they should be stopped, but this is not a one variable system. You've got a large group of people who feel robbed of a state (and all the associated trappings), a hope and a life - it doesn't surprise me that some of them react violently, nor that said violent cause gets popular support.

[JimBob]

Seamus,
No, because:
1) Jerusalem is south of the 32nd, thereby giving it to Palestine. Very few Israelis would except that.
2) The good farmland is in the north west of the country. The south is Gaza and the Negev Desert
3) One of the few useful pieces of land in the south is Eliat, which the Israelis are unlikely to giveup because it is useful, one of their larger cities, and there only port on the Red Sea
4) Tel-Aviv is right on that line. They have already hypothetically given up Jerusalem, they will not give their most important city or put it in danger.
5) Water. Access is in the north west. Our little Palestinian state would have to rely on trade and treating salt water.
6) The migration would be terrible. Isrealis from Eliat going north. A good half of the West Bank including Nablus going south. That would be a humanitarian disaster waiting to happen.

There really is not room for a completely independant two state solution.

[AntiochusIII]

um no. How about, Israel and them stops provkoing Palestinians into attacking their neighbors and ploblem is settled.

...it goes either way.

I'm not even sure Hamas is responsible for this attack, or, if it's really Hamas, who is shooting all the rockets. There are a lot of competing groups out there in the mess that is the Middle East; Fatah, for example, while still reeling from their electoral defeat, still exists and I suspect despise Hamas to the core.

I mean, despite most people somehow getting the idea that Hamas is some well-organized force with a superstructure and a clear command line like the IDF, it's actually very fragmented, with a lot of infighting and radicals acting on their own initiatives -- the military wing's more militant position compare to the relatively newer political wing that actually have to run the mess (in general terms) once they've won that election is quite well known. Israel could even be partially blamed for decimating the Hamas heads whom they could've allowed to live and be able to actually negotiate with in any effective fashion. That they have to deal with a completely fragmented and naturally unpredictable partner-in-hell is quite unfortunate, but what is there, is there.

This "Hamas is to blame for everything" smells of scapegoating it too much. Pointing fingers do not change a complex political mess of this caliber. The rocket-firing episode here in defiance of the ceasefire is just another episode in a long-running series of unfortunate events.

[Incongruous]

The problem is that the Palenstine people have no nation to be encroached upon, and the last attempt to create a Palenstine state ended in the current wave of violence between Israel and the Palenstine people because of groups like the two that launched rockets once again into Israel.

Really? I thought it was really the massive American Backing Isreal received. The Fact that Britain double-crossed the Arabs in one of our nations most shameful acts. I also thought it was to do with the fact that Isreal uses state terrorism and elects genocidal maniacs into power. If Isreal is based upon a kingdom that existed over a thousand years ago, I see no reason why the wrong doing of the zionists should be so lightly waved aside.

The only way I can see Isreal ever being accepted is if they accept the wrong was originally theirs (many other peoples have accepted this why should Isreal be so different? American dollars?). And to allow the UN to sort this mess, out. Basically to go back to their Un Borders.

[AntiochusIII]

Basically to go back to their Un Borders.

Apart from having not a chance in hell to happen, that is a logistical impossibility and a humanitarian nightmare.

In such a volatile region as the Middle East, moving that many people (to where?) would invite genocidal maniacs to work their magic, among others. Do you really think it would solve any problem? If this hypothetical demand is accepted, the Israelis would likely be just as bitter as the Palestinians now, and would be just as willing to resort to mass violence and terrorism if necessary...

...a cycle, again...

[Incongruous]

Apart from having not a chance in hell to happen, that is a logistical impossibility and a humanitarian nightmare.

In such a volatile region as the Middle East, moving that many people (to where?) would invite genocidal maniacs to work their magic, among others. Do you really think it would solve any problem? If this hypothetical demand is accepted, the Israelis would likely be just as bitter as the Palestinians now, and would be just as willing to resort to mass violence and terrorism if necessary...

...a cycle, again...

Not to sound like preening little prat, but Isrealis already undertake mass violence and terrorism.

At the moment any land concessions would leave Palastinians with the short end of the stick.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

So, as noted above, there is no combination of "lines on a map" that all parties will find bearable.

As a water-consuming entity, attempts to subdivide the region are impractical, since the key watersheds all run from one nexus.

Neither side, for religious/cultural reasons, is comfortable ceding control of Jerusalem.

All of the relevant population sub-groups are tangled together in a fashion remeniscent of the central Balkans.

Both larger "sides" are subdivided to a fare-thee-well, and cannot for political reasons entirely squelch the extremist elements within their groupings. Moreover, control over these groups -- particularly on the Islamic side -- is tenuous at best.

No sense of common culture/background is perceived by the parties to the conflict. No "IRA gives up the armed struggle" is in the offing. Far too many of the local participants have too much of their power invested in "warlord" status. Such leaders require a physical threat to "oppose."


...And thus we arrive at the only practical means of resolving things.

Let them fight.


It will take generations, but eventually one side or the other will have:

a) successfully extirpated the other.

or

b) both will have bled each other white long enough to actually embrace non-violent means of coexistence.



Palestine is not, for reasons of water and topography and overall land area, divisible in any practical sense. Those living there must learn to coexist as one political entity or accept an ongoing existence of costant conflict and warlordism as their norm of existence.


Those of us outside Palestine really can't do **** over shinola to change that last point.

[yesdachi]

Let them fight.

IMO that is the blocking issue, the “world” won’t let them fight, the minute they start openly fighting the media and all the loud mouths around the world start crying for an end of the fighting. I say let them fight, we know what the outcome will be, why keep prolonging the inevitable.

[Banquo's Ghost]

...And thus we arrive at the only practical means of resolving things.

Let them fight.

Interesting analysis, and one with which I have some sympathy.

However, is this "let them fight" but with one side massively financed and politically guaranteed by the world's only superpower, or should everyone else get the heck out?

Because it's not really a fight in doubt, if the former case, is it? Just an extirpation, aka as a final solution.

Here's a hypothetical to play with:

If the US withdrew all subsidies and unconditional support to the Israeli state, would they talk constructively, fight unrestrainedly, or shrug?

[yesdachi]

However, is this "let them fight" but with one side massively financed and politically guaranteed by the world's only superpower, or should everyone else get the heck out?

I think that would be the perfect reason for the side not backed by a superpower to stop firing rockets at the other.

Here's a hypothetical to play with:

If the US withdrew all subsidies and unconditional support to the Israeli state, would they talk constructively, fight unrestrainedly, or shrug?

Might motivate them to act more swiftly to eliminate the thorns in their sides.

[Pannonian]

Interesting analysis, and one with which I have some sympathy.

However, is this "let them fight" but with one side massively financed and politically guaranteed by the world's only superpower, or should everyone else get the heck out?

Because it's not really a fight in doubt, if the former case, is it? Just an extirpation, aka as a final solution.

Here's a hypothetical to play with:

If the US withdrew all subsidies and unconditional support to the Israeli state, would they talk constructively, fight unrestrainedly, or shrug?

I imagine they'd turn to Russia or China instead, as they've done in the past. Far moreso than the Arabs, the Israelis have been skilful at playing off one superpower against another to obtain the best deal for themselves. Though there's little evidence that any of the current lot are anywhere near as adept at Macchiavelli as the masters of yore, probably a result of political flabbiness caused by a long period of guaranteed US support.

Personally, I favour the "seal them off and let them kill each to their hearts' content" solution. Neither Israel nor Palestine has anything intrinsically of value to the EU, so we might as well minimise our own contact with the conflict. If we want access to the east Mediterranean shores, we could always patronise Lebanon, which has a firmer European cultural foundation.