Rockets Hit Isreial

[Redleg]

Most people don't like it when they feel their country is being encroached upon.

The problem is that the Palenstine people have no nation to be encroached upon, and the last attempt to create a Palenstine state ended in the current wave of violence between Israel and the Palenstine people because of groups like the two that launched rockets once again into Israel.

Now which point of view of the history of Israel one wishes to take does not negate one simple fact in this instance. That the aggression after the announced ceasefire was not conducted by Israel.

Sadly it doesn't bode well, but maybe Israel will show restraint and not retaliate as the public statement seems to indicate.

[CrossLOPER]

That is one way to completily disregard the religious aspect of these attacks. Do not forget that Hamas and the Islamic Jihad are rabid fundie's that actually do want to drive the jews into the sea. A pretty popular sound there in poor innocent Palestina where people suffer so much. Both sides are completily nuts I might add, that whole area is one big psychotic episode on a plane.

I was referring to both sides, but I will not say I disagree with you.

The problem is that the Palenstine people have no nation to be encroached upon, and the last attempt to create a Palenstine state ended in the current wave of violence between Israel and the Palenstine people because of groups like the two that launched rockets once again into Israel.

Now which point of view of the history of Israel one wishes to take does not negate one simple fact in this instance. That the aggression after the announced ceasefire was not conducted by Israel.

Sadly it doesn't bode well, but maybe Israel will show restraint and not retaliate as the public statement seems to indicate.

I am so not going to bother arguing any part of this, favorably or otherwise.

[Incongruous]

The problem is that the Palenstine people have no nation to be encroached upon, and the last attempt to create a Palenstine state ended in the current wave of violence between Israel and the Palenstine people because of groups like the two that launched rockets once again into Israel.

Really? I thought it was really the massive American Backing Isreal received. The Fact that Britain double-crossed the Arabs in one of our nations most shameful acts. I also thought it was to do with the fact that Isreal uses state terrorism and elects genocidal maniacs into power. If Isreal is based upon a kingdom that existed over a thousand years ago, I see no reason why the wrong doing of the zionists should be so lightly waved aside.

The only way I can see Isreal ever being accepted is if they accept the wrong was originally theirs (many other peoples have accepted this why should Isreal be so different? American dollars?). And to allow the UN to sort this mess, out. Basically to go back to their Un Borders.

[AntiochusIII]

Basically to go back to their Un Borders.

Apart from having not a chance in hell to happen, that is a logistical impossibility and a humanitarian nightmare.

In such a volatile region as the Middle East, moving that many people (to where?) would invite genocidal maniacs to work their magic, among others. Do you really think it would solve any problem? If this hypothetical demand is accepted, the Israelis would likely be just as bitter as the Palestinians now, and would be just as willing to resort to mass violence and terrorism if necessary...

...a cycle, again...

[Incongruous]

Apart from having not a chance in hell to happen, that is a logistical impossibility and a humanitarian nightmare.

In such a volatile region as the Middle East, moving that many people (to where?) would invite genocidal maniacs to work their magic, among others. Do you really think it would solve any problem? If this hypothetical demand is accepted, the Israelis would likely be just as bitter as the Palestinians now, and would be just as willing to resort to mass violence and terrorism if necessary...

...a cycle, again...

Not to sound like preening little prat, but Isrealis already undertake mass violence and terrorism.

At the moment any land concessions would leave Palastinians with the short end of the stick.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

So, as noted above, there is no combination of "lines on a map" that all parties will find bearable.

As a water-consuming entity, attempts to subdivide the region are impractical, since the key watersheds all run from one nexus.

Neither side, for religious/cultural reasons, is comfortable ceding control of Jerusalem.

All of the relevant population sub-groups are tangled together in a fashion remeniscent of the central Balkans.

Both larger "sides" are subdivided to a fare-thee-well, and cannot for political reasons entirely squelch the extremist elements within their groupings. Moreover, control over these groups -- particularly on the Islamic side -- is tenuous at best.

No sense of common culture/background is perceived by the parties to the conflict. No "IRA gives up the armed struggle" is in the offing. Far too many of the local participants have too much of their power invested in "warlord" status. Such leaders require a physical threat to "oppose."


...And thus we arrive at the only practical means of resolving things.

Let them fight.


It will take generations, but eventually one side or the other will have:

a) successfully extirpated the other.

or

b) both will have bled each other white long enough to actually embrace non-violent means of coexistence.



Palestine is not, for reasons of water and topography and overall land area, divisible in any practical sense. Those living there must learn to coexist as one political entity or accept an ongoing existence of costant conflict and warlordism as their norm of existence.


Those of us outside Palestine really can't do **** over shinola to change that last point.

[yesdachi]

Let them fight.

IMO that is the blocking issue, the “world” won’t let them fight, the minute they start openly fighting the media and all the loud mouths around the world start crying for an end of the fighting. I say let them fight, we know what the outcome will be, why keep prolonging the inevitable.

[Banquo's Ghost]

...And thus we arrive at the only practical means of resolving things.

Let them fight.

Interesting analysis, and one with which I have some sympathy.

However, is this "let them fight" but with one side massively financed and politically guaranteed by the world's only superpower, or should everyone else get the heck out?

Because it's not really a fight in doubt, if the former case, is it? Just an extirpation, aka as a final solution.

Here's a hypothetical to play with:

If the US withdrew all subsidies and unconditional support to the Israeli state, would they talk constructively, fight unrestrainedly, or shrug?

[yesdachi]

However, is this "let them fight" but with one side massively financed and politically guaranteed by the world's only superpower, or should everyone else get the heck out?

I think that would be the perfect reason for the side not backed by a superpower to stop firing rockets at the other.

Here's a hypothetical to play with:

If the US withdrew all subsidies and unconditional support to the Israeli state, would they talk constructively, fight unrestrainedly, or shrug?

Might motivate them to act more swiftly to eliminate the thorns in their sides.

[Pannonian]

Interesting analysis, and one with which I have some sympathy.

However, is this "let them fight" but with one side massively financed and politically guaranteed by the world's only superpower, or should everyone else get the heck out?

Because it's not really a fight in doubt, if the former case, is it? Just an extirpation, aka as a final solution.

Here's a hypothetical to play with:

If the US withdrew all subsidies and unconditional support to the Israeli state, would they talk constructively, fight unrestrainedly, or shrug?

I imagine they'd turn to Russia or China instead, as they've done in the past. Far moreso than the Arabs, the Israelis have been skilful at playing off one superpower against another to obtain the best deal for themselves. Though there's little evidence that any of the current lot are anywhere near as adept at Macchiavelli as the masters of yore, probably a result of political flabbiness caused by a long period of guaranteed US support.

Personally, I favour the "seal them off and let them kill each to their hearts' content" solution. Neither Israel nor Palestine has anything intrinsically of value to the EU, so we might as well minimise our own contact with the conflict. If we want access to the east Mediterranean shores, we could always patronise Lebanon, which has a firmer European cultural foundation.

[Redleg]

Really? I thought it was really the massive American Backing Isreal received.

Rather amusing.....

The Fact that Britain double-crossed the Arabs in one of our nations most shameful acts.

Power politics at its finest.

I also thought it was to do with the fact that Isreal uses state terrorism and elects genocidal maniacs into power. If Isreal is based upon a kingdom that existed over a thousand years ago, I see no reason why the wrong doing of the zionists should be so lightly waved aside.

Valid point concerning Israel - but it does not negate the fact that Hammas does not want to accept Israel as a state. I don't wave the zionists actions aside, and neither do I accept the arguement that the Palenstine terror groups are blameless....

The only way I can see Isreal ever being accepted is if they accept the wrong was originally theirs (many other peoples have accepted this why should Isreal be so different? American dollars?). And to allow the UN to sort this mess, out. Basically to go back to their Un Borders.

Which is the current deal being worked out. Time will tell if the Palenstine people want to live in peace with their own state, or not.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

How is Isreal using Terroism? I like to know, why are people going ahead and blaming them for everything, and letting Hamas and the Palenstine go..

[Dâriûsh]

How is Isreal using Terroism? I like to know, why are people going ahead and blaming them for everything, and letting Hamas and the Palenstine go..

Indeed. Who would label IDF house demolitions across Palestine as terrorism?

[Goofball]

Indeed. Who would label IDF house demolitions across Palestine as terrorism?

I am a rather reasonable individual (at least I think so), and I wouldn't label that terrorism. It's the closest the Israelis are able to come to striking at what passes for the "infrastructure" of Palestinian terrorists: blowing up the structures suspected of sheltering them.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I am a rather reasonable individual (at least I think so), and I wouldn't label that terrorism. It's the closest the Israelis are able to come to striking at what passes for the "infrastructure" of Palestinian terrorists: blowing up the structures suspected of sheltering them.

To which many would counter that:

absent a proper legal hearing, no valid determination of the terrorist status of the individuals in question has been made, hence an attack on their property would itself be an act of criminal violence (and possibly of terrorism).

It's a classic twist of the non-war war they're fighting over there.

[Incongruous]

I am a rather reasonable individual (at least I think so), and I wouldn't label that terrorism. It's the closest the Israelis are able to come to striking at what passes for the "infrastructure" of Palestinian terrorists: blowing up the structures suspected of sheltering them.

Oh yes, that's perfectly fine I suppose.
Tell me have you ever heard of a book called Freedom Next Time by John Pilger?
I advise you to read it.

[Dâriûsh]

I am a rather reasonable individual (at least I think so), and I wouldn't label that terrorism. It's the closest the Israelis are able to come to striking at what passes for the "infrastructure" of Palestinian terrorists: blowing up the structures suspected of sheltering them.

Tell that to the little old lady who was forced out of her home at three in the morning, only to have an armoured bulldozer demolish her home because her son was a suspected Hamas affiliate.

I would label that as terrorism.

[Incongruous]

Rather amusing.

Really, I find it quite sickening actually.