The dissolution of the Union

[Duke Malcolm]

Interesting that none of you have speculated on the issue of who would get to keep the North Sea oil? It seems to be a little arrogant to just assume that England would get to keep the rigs and production facilities, hmmm? I think that this single issue alone is enough to keep Scotland and England united. Neither one can afford to do without the oil.

Scotland would get the oil, it is on Scottish territorial waters, methinks. The companies would keep the rigs.

[Kralizec]

Would a seperated Scotland continue as a member of the Commonwealth? How republican are the Scots generally?

Also, can someone fill me in on the whole "devolution" thing? As I understand it, Scots have a parliament exclusively for themselves (and similar things planned for the Welsh and N.Irish) while the English don't as they have to share parliament with the Scots?

[Duke Malcolm]

Would a seperated Scotland continue as a member of the Commonwealth? How republican are the Scots generally?

I do not know. It would certainly be a member of the Commonwealth, just as England would be. I don't know about the Monarchy. Many see them as the "English" Royal Family, and might be done away with after the Union. I don't think that there are many who are specifically republican and would prefer an elected president, but we can hardly offer the throne to the Duke of Bavaria...

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

I'm not sure the oil is too big a factor. Even with it taken into account, there is still a net flow of money out of London and the South East towards Scotland.

The split would be financially beneficial for England. Not that that means it's a good idea, of course. Perhaps proper federalism would satisfy both parties?

[scotchedpommes]

I'm not sure the oil is too big a factor. Even with it taken into account, there is still a net flow of money out of London and the South East towards Scotland.

The split would be financially beneficial for England. Not that that means it's a good idea, of course. Perhaps proper federalism would satisfy both parties?

Given that it was the oil that sparked Nationalism before now and that they're
still talking about taking the benefit from it, I think they might still see it as a
major factor.

As far as federalism is concerned, I very much doubt that it would be accepted
up here, as they've said that nothing short of full independence would be an
objective. The idea of staying part of the Commonwealth given that fact also
seems absurd. Connection to the monarchy [including that in Bavaria] should
dissolve completely.

If Scotland becomes independent, the resolution of the West Lothian question will be the ejection of all MPs with a Scottish constituency - they will have to stand for the Independent Scottish Parliament. New Labour will suffer greviously in that scenario. The Tories, who have no seats in Scotland at all (or maybe they got one last time) would be unaffected and likely to have the in-built permanent majority in England and Wales that Labour would enjoy in Scotland.

Except the Scottish Nationalists would probably eclipse Labour there too.

Cue the conference panic and backlash speeches.

The Tories gained a single seat, as far as I am aware - and no doubt as Malcolm would mention, they probably have control of a fair few insignificant positions around the country.

I'd venture that neither party [Labour or SNP] is sure which way a vote would go, and that's why we'll be seeing pushes from both sides. Whether or not polls seem to indicate that a majority would vote for independence, I would imagine regional variation is considerable. Whenever the local news programmes conduct their 'man on the street' style questioning, a majority seem to be in favour of the status quo, if not entirely apathetic. That said, the demographic never seems to be that varied. I personally find it hard to see the SNP winning the election, and so all this talk about polls is rather pointless. All it does is give IA and co. a chance to have a whine.

[King Henry V]

I guess they could always invite over a real Scot to become King of Scotland:
Franz, Duke of Bavaria, heir of Bonnie Prince Charlie.

[Pannonian]

I guess they could always invite over a real Scot to become King of Scotland:
Franz, Duke of Bavaria, heir of Bonnie Prince Charlie.

Presumably when he takes his seat on the Stone of Scone he'll rename himself Fran.

[InsaneApache]

Sorry the Act of Settlement forbids it.

[King Henry V]

Sorry the Act of Settlement forbids it.

But surely such a racist/chavinistic/imperialist/nazi act can not be allowed in a multi-faith, multi-cultural society as our own, can it? It's against the European Covention of Human Rights!

If Scotland gets independence, then we may as well go the whole distance and split up into the old pre-England kingdoms.

Whoever gets the City will be very happy. Everyone else less so.

Wessex! Yarrrrr!

[BDC]

If Scotland gets independence, then we may as well go the whole distance and split up into the old pre-England kingdoms.

Whoever gets the City will be very happy. Everyone else less so.

[ZombieFriedNuts]

I hear that if Scotland leaves they will become a 3’rd world country overnight

[Duke Malcolm]

I hear that if Scotland leaves they will become a 3’rd world country overnight

Evidently you have not been to Scotland recently...

Banquo- The Scottish Parliament does not have tax-raising powers, and the SNP have stated that they would remain in the Commonwealth.

Sorry the Act of Settlement forbids it.

That does not apply to Scotland, since it was passed by England in 1701, before the Act of Union. However, Article 2 of the Treaty of the Act of Union effectively enshrines it in Scots Law. If the Act of Union was repealed, then it would no longer be applicable.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Banquo- The Scottish Parliament does not have tax-raising powers, and the SNP have stated that they would remain in the Commonwealth.

Does it not? Then I stand corrected. Is it tax-spending then? They certainly appear to have substantial differences in spending powers.

[IrishArmenian]

What about the Welsh and the Ulstermen? BKS, could you give us the thoughts of the average Welshman on indpedence? From what I read, most of the Welsh despise being part of the UK, but the oly Ulsterman I know says he is "British and Proud."
EDIT: By the way, just so everyone is clear, the U.K. has never been the land of Peace, Love and Understanding (Sorry McManus, I mean Costello). Everyone hates everyone else. Everyone has their own football except for the Welsh, who have to deal with having most of their international squad play for the English Clubs (I will catch a lot heat for this but, I like how Craig Bellamy plays, very intense, always aware* dodges bottle thrown by drunken English man*)
So, in conclusion, in the U.K., everyone hates everybody else!

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

What about the Welsh and the Ulstermen? BKS, could you give us the thoughts of the average Welshman on indpedence? From what I read, most of the Welsh despise being part of the UK,

I have never met any Welshman who has complained about being part of the UK. They are well aware that we don't have a sustainable economy, and that independance from the UK would ruin us.

Bear in mind, however, that I'm from the south, which is far more cosmopolitan. If you did a survey in the valleys, I'm sure that you'd find far more people who desired independance-most of this kind of sentiment is rooted in the Conservatives shutting the coal mines in the eighties.

[KukriKhan]

... Bear in mind, however, that I'm from the south, which is far more cosmopolitan. If you did a survey in the valleys, I'm sure that you'd find far more people who desired independance-most of this kind of sentiment is rooted in the Conservatives shutting the coal mines in the eighties.

"All Politics is Local". Thus spake Thomas "Tip" O'Neill, longtime Speaker of the US House of Reps. I'm continuously amazed that in a country with less land mass and population than California, such diversity of opinion and outlook can exist (and co-exist, for that matter).

Does such distain for England and the English actually rise to the level of racial hatred among non-English citizens, as InsaneApache suggests? My whole life, I've thought there existed a rivalry between Angle, Scot, Welshman & Irisher, more on the lines of a good-natured sports rivalry. And I thought the addition of former colonists (Pakistanis, Indians, etc) as immigrants would just make the rivalry more diverse (kind of like our NFL 'expansion teams').

Should I re-think that relationship?

[Banquo's Ghost]

Also, can someone fill me in on the whole "devolution" thing? As I understand it, Scots have a parliament exclusively for themselves (and similar things planned for the Welsh and N.Irish) while the English don't as they have to share parliament with the Scots?

Devolution is the assignment of powers to a lower level of government. There are different powers seceded to the Scottish Parliament than to those of Wales and Northern Ireland. (Note that the N.I. Assembly is currently suspended and on life support). This is reflected in the names - The Welsh Assembly, the Scottish Parliament. The latter has tax raising powers, for example (which make it rather powerful) whereas the former does not, making the Welsh Assembly little more than an expensive talking shop of the order of an English County Council.

The anomaly to all this is that the British Parliament at Westminster is still a government of the whole island. It sets foreign policy for Scotland for example, but not education policy. England does not have an equivalent of the Scottish Parliament for its own territory (although there are a couple of Regional Assemblies - see description of the Welsh Assembly for uselessness).

Because the members of the Westminster Parliament are elected from across the whole country, this leads to what is known as the West Lothian question. The Member for West Lothian (in Scotland) may vote on matters that affect the people of England, but those English voters have no equivalent representation on Scottish matters.

As IA noted, New Labour is largely made up of Scottish MPs as historically Scotland has been left-leaning. Devolution allows them to have an in-built majority in Scotland, and retain the power of that lobby in Westminster.

If Scotland becomes independent, the resolution of the West Lothian question will be the ejection of all MPs with a Scottish constituency - they will have to stand for the Independent Scottish Parliament. New Labour will suffer greviously in that scenario. The Tories, who have no seats in Scotland at all (or maybe they got one last time) would be unaffected and likely to have the in-built permanent majority in England and Wales that Labour would enjoy in Scotland.

Except the Scottish Nationalists would probably eclipse Labour there too.

Gordon Brown would not be eligible to be Prime Minister of England and Wales, unless he moved and stood for election in an English constituency.

I do not know. It would certainly be a member of the Commonwealth, just as England would be.

Not necessarily. The Republic of Ireland declined to be a member of the Commonwealth after independence.

[Pannonian]

The anomaly to all this is that the British Parliament at Westminster is still a government of the whole island. It sets foreign policy for Scotland for example, but not education policy. England does not have an equivalent of the Scottish Parliament for its own territory (although there are a couple of Regional Assemblies - see description of the Welsh Assembly for uselessness).

The north east turned down a regional assembly because they didn't want another level of government wasting their tax money. Devolution of the regions is rather unpopular for this reason.

[InsaneApache]

All it does is give IA and co. a chance to have a whine.

No whining here I think it's a good idea that Scotland bankrupts rules itself.

Did I mention that I lived in bonnie Scotland for a few years when I was a kid? So no rose tinted spectacles either when it comes to the racism a lot of the Scots have towards the English.

[scotchedpommes]

Did I mention that I lived in bonnie Scotland for a few years when I was a kid? So no rose tinted spectacles either when it comes to the racism a lot of the Scots have towards the English.

And no tarring the rest of us with the same brush either, eh?

[InsaneApache]

And no tarring the rest of us with the same brush either, eh?

Not at all. I made some very good friends in Ardrossan, probably more enlightened than most. However even these guys hated teh English...just not this particular one.

Originally Posted by InsaneApache
Did I mention that I lived in bonnie Scotland for a few years when I was a kid? So no rose tinted spectacles either when it comes to the racism a lot of the Scots have towards the English.

I never said all...but there is a majority with this victim mindset......I take it you're a Scotchman then?

NB: I just ran this through the spellchecker and it accepted Scotchman....

[therother]

As IA noted, New Labour is largely made up of Scottish MPs as historically Scotland has been left-leaning.

41 of 356 New Labour MPs were from Scottish seats at the last election.

New Labour will suffer greviously in that scenario. The Tories, who have no seats in Scotland at all (or maybe they got one last time) would be unaffected and likely to have the in-built permanent majority in England and Wales that Labour would enjoy in Scotland.

New Labour would still have a majority in the remainder of the UK if the Scottish MPs were excluded. Labour had 356 seats in total at the last election, so they would have had 315 without Scotland. The new threshold for overall majority, substracting the 59 Scottish seats, would be 294.

[InsaneApache]

Scotland would get the oil, it is on Scottish territorial waters, methinks. The companies would keep the rigs.

Ok Malcolm two things.

It's the Union Flag, not the Union Jack. You of all should know better.

As for the oil thingy.....a little re-drawing of the international maritime boundaries......

As if we'd let the Scots keep all that money....this is Blair after all....