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Thread: Keeping the Holy Lands...
If I try hard as the English, I can have Jerusalem on turn 29. Keeping it however is a different story. I dont really have the economy to pay a full stack to guard it that early. I could keep it but Im thinking it might be better to sell it back or something, only to take it again later when my treasury wont feel it as much. Im all for an early crusade to get my family stats up, but for Jeruselem, not so much. Anyone keeping early crusade conquests? Whats your strategy?
I usually keep them (for tax purposes) until they are just about to revolt. Then I tear down all the buildings (except the Catholic Church, if there is one) and give the region to the Pope. Papal standing goes through the roof and now they are stuck managing a revolting city, which they will probably lose and call another crusade on.
Cheating for money is a great thing, keeps the holy land yours.
Originally Posted by lars573:
Cheating for money is a great thing, keeps the holy land yours.
I would have to disagree. While it may allow you more money, it is 'cheating' after all and subtracts from the overall challenge of the game. It doesn't take a genius to cheat to win. Anybody can do it. I may be wrong, but I think the poster was looking for sugestions on how to deal with the Holy Land regions that didn't involve a windfall profit from nothing.Cheating for money is a great thing, keeps the holy land yours.
I just think cheating in a game like this is pointless.
I've never seen the Egyptians or Turks field an army that actually worried me. Just stuff any holy land conquests with free upkeep militia units and let them try to take it.
Originally Posted by Lord Condormanius:
I usually keep them (for tax purposes) until they are just about to revolt. Then I tear down all the buildings (except the Catholic Church, if there is one) and give the region to the Pope. Papal standing goes through the roof and now they are stuck managing a revolting city, which they will probably lose and call another crusade on.
That is pretty humorous. I took Antioch in a crusade in my Spanish game and couldn't afford to hold it, so I devised a profitable exit strategy. I left two crusader spear units to hold the city and then took the rest of the army and sacked Aleppo. I left Aleppo undefended and marched on and sacked Damascus, then Acre, and finally Jerusalem. Without about 75k in the ole treasury, I marched what was left of my forces back to Antioch (sacking Acre again along the way) and picked up the two crusader spear units from Antioch, which was only a turn or two away from boiling over with rebellion, and then marched onwards to the sea and hired a mercenary ship to ferry my men over to Rhodes which I captured and turned into my advance post for when I return and am serious about holding the Holy Lands. I left the region in shambles from both a population and economic standpoint. I'm sure the locals will not be even a tad bit polite to anyone sporting a spanish flag or a christian cross in the future I usually keep them (for tax purposes) until they are just about to revolt. Then I tear down all the buildings (except the Catholic Church, if there is one) and give the region to the Pope. Papal standing goes through the roof and now they are stuck managing a revolting city, which they will probably lose and call another crusade on.
My first crusade was Antioch in my English H/H campaign. I *barely* managed to hang on to it, but after maybe 12 turns or so, it's finally to the point where I can move my general out of the city without a revolt. Anyway here's some tips, and also some more questions (my 2nd crusade, this time Jerusalem, just started.)
1) If you don't have a full stack and can't afford to hire crusader mercs, definitely at least hire several units of pilgrims -- even post-crusade their upkeep is only 90 a turn, so they're useful for getting your public order due to garrison up to the max. Sending 2 stacks, with the 2nd loaded with pilgrims seems to be an even better idea.
2) Don't even think of occupying a crusaded settlement, definitely sack or exterminate. (Question though: my first successful crusader general went from a nobody to a heavyweight overnight after the crusade, especially his chivalry stat... if I would have exterminated instead of sacking the city, would he have gained a dread stat and hence lost a chivalry stat? Depending on the answer to this question, I think extermination might be an even better bet.)
3) BRING PRIESTS with your crusade. Spies/Assassins are also very helpful to your public order because they can rid the city of enemy spies which seem to hurt public order.
4) Once you've occupied the first two buildings you build should be the first two levels of churches. Religious unrest is the biggest problem to getting an islamic city under control.
5) Don't be afraid to spend money hiring mercs to garrison the city if it helps public order. I consider holding the city a long term investment, so it's worth it in the short run to spend at an abnormally high rate there.
6) Finally, if it looks like you'll have to endure a turn or two of unrest, move everyone except your spear and town militia out of the city walls. That way, revolts don't damage your better units which can't be replenished easily.
And if anyone can lend any info on what happens trait-wise to an exterminating general, I'd love to hear it... it will be useful to know what I should do with Jerusalem if my 2nd crusade succeeds.
1) If you don't have a full stack and can't afford to hire crusader mercs, definitely at least hire several units of pilgrims -- even post-crusade their upkeep is only 90 a turn, so they're useful for getting your public order due to garrison up to the max. Sending 2 stacks, with the 2nd loaded with pilgrims seems to be an even better idea.
2) Don't even think of occupying a crusaded settlement, definitely sack or exterminate. (Question though: my first successful crusader general went from a nobody to a heavyweight overnight after the crusade, especially his chivalry stat... if I would have exterminated instead of sacking the city, would he have gained a dread stat and hence lost a chivalry stat? Depending on the answer to this question, I think extermination might be an even better bet.)
3) BRING PRIESTS with your crusade. Spies/Assassins are also very helpful to your public order because they can rid the city of enemy spies which seem to hurt public order.
4) Once you've occupied the first two buildings you build should be the first two levels of churches. Religious unrest is the biggest problem to getting an islamic city under control.
5) Don't be afraid to spend money hiring mercs to garrison the city if it helps public order. I consider holding the city a long term investment, so it's worth it in the short run to spend at an abnormally high rate there.
6) Finally, if it looks like you'll have to endure a turn or two of unrest, move everyone except your spear and town militia out of the city walls. That way, revolts don't damage your better units which can't be replenished easily.
And if anyone can lend any info on what happens trait-wise to an exterminating general, I'd love to hear it... it will be useful to know what I should do with Jerusalem if my 2nd crusade succeeds.
Yes cheating is not what I had in mind. Yes the Egyptians are quite easy to handle in moderation but they do tend to call a Jihad, and thats when you need the full stack. I have also pondered sacking all the settlements and leaving the Holy Lands in shambles. Im sure this is quite lucrative. I just need to get it out of my head that I need to hold them so early. A quick profitable crusade and im out. I shall return!
I managed to keep Jerusalem under control for quite awhile playing as the Scottish. But it is hard to fend off Islam. But my view on cheating, after about my 8th campaign i decided I was going to cheat as the Spanish and just rush through the campaign so I can FINALLY go to the new world. Well it started off that way i took all of what is now Spain, but I began to realize that the AI was pushing out some extremely large armies. I believe the add money cheat gives the computers money also, I have found myself in a 3 way war Spain vs Milan vs Denmark involving many many full stacks of units. So much for rushing to the new world..
It shouldn't be too hard to take both the castle type settlements next to Jerusalem, or indeed the two near Antioch as well. These are much more amenable to being ruled - not quite so much unrest, plus they provide a handy base from which to go and sack Jerusalem/Antioch whenever they happen to revolt, providing a rather handy cash injection.
When it comes to dominating an area of the map, that's what castles are for, so take them and dominate. Forget about the cities, they're just there to provide money. Don't get hung up on maintaining public order, this isn't some namby-pamby social service game... The people are there to be exploited, in any way possible.
When it comes to dominating an area of the map, that's what castles are for, so take them and dominate. Forget about the cities, they're just there to provide money. Don't get hung up on maintaining public order, this isn't some namby-pamby social service game... The people are there to be exploited, in any way possible.
Nice tips Flavius Gonzo. Thats pretty much how I've been playing it out. I *could* keep the Holy Lands but it would be as posted before, a long term investment. It would open up early trade with the Mediterranean sea, and a castle in the east would provide a base to project my power. Im starting to lean towards a slash and burn first crusade, for stats and profit only. I want to keep them, and I would make the investment, but not at the cost of slowing my massive building efforts going on in England.
Originally Posted by Somebody Else:
It shouldn't be too hard to take both the castle type settlements next to Jerusalem, or indeed the two near Antioch as well. These are much more amenable to being ruled - not quite so much unrest, plus they provide a handy base from which to go and sack Jerusalem/Antioch whenever they happen to revolt, providing a rather handy cash injection.
When it comes to dominating an area of the map, that's what castles are for, so take them and dominate. Forget about the cities, they're just there to provide money. Don't get hung up on maintaining public order, this isn't some namby-pamby social service game... The people are there to be exploited, in any way possible.
Right On!It shouldn't be too hard to take both the castle type settlements next to Jerusalem, or indeed the two near Antioch as well. These are much more amenable to being ruled - not quite so much unrest, plus they provide a handy base from which to go and sack Jerusalem/Antioch whenever they happen to revolt, providing a rather handy cash injection.
When it comes to dominating an area of the map, that's what castles are for, so take them and dominate. Forget about the cities, they're just there to provide money. Don't get hung up on maintaining public order, this isn't some namby-pamby social service game... The people are there to be exploited, in any way possible.
Keep the castles, burn the cities, milk the Egyptians, take the cities when your ready.
Keeping the holy lands isnt difficult if you follow a few basic rules.
You must exterminate the populace. If you don't your left with a large hostile populace with a different religion.
Secondly you must start building churches, abbey's, cathedrals immediately. And start pumping out as many priests as you can. Always make sure your priests are preaching outside of the walls.
You must build a brothel as soon as its feasible. The #1 reason for unrest after religion is unrest caused by spies. In any settlement make sure you have good spies. But in the holy land make sure any settlement has 3 or more good spies. With solid spies in place, unrest will drop to 0%.
Make sure your governor has about as high as possible chivalry. Dread can work too, but I find it hard to keep dread up high with having to lower taxes a lot.
As soon as you can, always accept a holy knight order into one of the settlements. Those knights are more powerful then most of egypts cavalry and will help you keep the lands.
Lastly, but probably the more important in the long run. Make sure at least one of your generals there have a couple of son's yet to be of age. It's important to keep some generals there, and having them mature there is one of the easier ways.
Trait wise, exterminating jeruselum as long as its not catholic yet has no or little impact for dread. I've done it many times and only gotten a +1 dread. But the amount of chivalry you get from completing the crusade makes up for that and then some. Not to mention your going to be enduring turns of low taxes for awhile so they'll bounce back to full piety.
You must exterminate the populace. If you don't your left with a large hostile populace with a different religion.
Secondly you must start building churches, abbey's, cathedrals immediately. And start pumping out as many priests as you can. Always make sure your priests are preaching outside of the walls.
You must build a brothel as soon as its feasible. The #1 reason for unrest after religion is unrest caused by spies. In any settlement make sure you have good spies. But in the holy land make sure any settlement has 3 or more good spies. With solid spies in place, unrest will drop to 0%.
Make sure your governor has about as high as possible chivalry. Dread can work too, but I find it hard to keep dread up high with having to lower taxes a lot.
As soon as you can, always accept a holy knight order into one of the settlements. Those knights are more powerful then most of egypts cavalry and will help you keep the lands.
Lastly, but probably the more important in the long run. Make sure at least one of your generals there have a couple of son's yet to be of age. It's important to keep some generals there, and having them mature there is one of the easier ways.
Trait wise, exterminating jeruselum as long as its not catholic yet has no or little impact for dread. I've done it many times and only gotten a +1 dread. But the amount of chivalry you get from completing the crusade makes up for that and then some. Not to mention your going to be enduring turns of low taxes for awhile so they'll bounce back to full piety.
Actually you don't need to exterminate anything, if you follow my method...
Pick one province to produce priests from on the FIRST turn of the game. And have it produce a priest basically every turn. Send them all to the holy land. B y the time they get there they will have gained some skill from travelling (And from taking out any heretics you see along the way of course). Plant one in Antioch, one in Acre, one in Jerusalem, one in Aleppo, etc.
Now by the time the first crusade is called they'll likely all be cardinals and the regions will all have 40-60% catholicism. Attach a spy to your crusade army and send them off.
You'll have no problems at all.
Pick one province to produce priests from on the FIRST turn of the game. And have it produce a priest basically every turn. Send them all to the holy land. B y the time they get there they will have gained some skill from travelling (And from taking out any heretics you see along the way of course). Plant one in Antioch, one in Acre, one in Jerusalem, one in Aleppo, etc.
Now by the time the first crusade is called they'll likely all be cardinals and the regions will all have 40-60% catholicism. Attach a spy to your crusade army and send them off.
You'll have no problems at all.
Speaking of Holy Lands...
On this day, November 27th 1095, at the Council of Clermont, Pope Urban II called for the First Crusade. I thought that was an interesting bit of info for you all out there...
On this day, November 27th 1095, at the Council of Clermont, Pope Urban II called for the First Crusade. I thought that was an interesting bit of info for you all out there...
Great posts everyone. What about the economical end. Sure you can keep them, but how do you keep them without stunting the growth of your main lands?
Originally Posted by ScrapTower:
Great posts everyone. What about the economical end. Sure you can keep them, but how do you keep them without stunting the growth of your main lands?
It shouldn't hurt your economy much if you don't go overboard with the garrison... You really don't need an uber army there... Certainly not one in every territory you take there. Just use the crusade army to take the surrounding rebel castles and leave light militia garrisons and only keep one big army and use it to lift any siege the egyptians or turks try.Great posts everyone. What about the economical end. Sure you can keep them, but how do you keep them without stunting the growth of your main lands?
After the crusade, your merc crusader knights start costing 300 per turn, and the spears arent much cheaper. The units you can train in the holy lands will be limited at first so you must keep them around for a few turns. Also Jihads will require a full, or close to a full stack to fend off. I play an aggressive opening. I own all of the British Isles and Caen by turn 12. (I think this is as fast as it can be done without cheating, please try to beat me, then tell me how you did it! ;P) Then I ask for a crusade way before the pope declares one. So far Ive had Jereusalem on turn 29 (thats pretty freekin fast), and I do it all without ever having to stop building due to lack of funds. So I guess the next suggestions I would enjoy reading would be how to keep them with as little investment as possible. :)
Oh, I don't use crusader-merc heavy crusade armies... I prefer to send my own (Cheaper) units, since I'm only going to siege the crusade target out anyway (Why would I want to get my units chewed up on an assault when I can't easily build a new one in that location?)
I've never had a jihad declared against Antioch or Jerusalem after taking them... but they've always still been rebel provinces when I got there, so I didn't take them away from a muslim faction.
Even if I was defending against a Jihad however, I'd prefer to leave the cities lightly defended with militia and let the Jihad lay siege and then come in with a mobile army and crush them against the wall...
I've never had a jihad declared against Antioch or Jerusalem after taking them... but they've always still been rebel provinces when I got there, so I didn't take them away from a muslim faction.
Even if I was defending against a Jihad however, I'd prefer to leave the cities lightly defended with militia and let the Jihad lay siege and then come in with a mobile army and crush them against the wall...
I can think of three options to keep the holy lands without to much of a cost:
1) Garrisonned Pilgrims. Again, only 90 upkeep and 35 to recruit. I think you have to recruit them back in catholic lands though before you launch to sea.
2) Diplomacy. A big problem with my Antioch crusade was the Byzantines to the north and a freak Moorish army dwelling inexplicably around the Cilician gates. After taking Antioch and Egyptian held Aleppo, I'm in an inescapable war with Egypt, but my real problem has been having to keep a large enough garrison in both Aleppo and Antioch so as not to entice the Moors or Byzantines to attack, as both are of Neutral-Very Poor status right now. If I have leave a small garrison in either city, one of them attacks seeing opportunity. (OK, I admitted, I cheated by reloading after ending a turn once, this is how I found out...)
If I would have made more of a diplomatic effort with each nation earlier and more often, I think I'd wouldn't have to worry as much about an attack from either. I can't even afford a war I can win with either country right now, they are both trading partners. I have a Diplomat on the way who will hopefully rectify this situation, as it is though, I have to keep up huge garrisons which are not cost effective...
3) MERCHANTS! Man, I wish I had thought to send these guys earlier, but my 2nd crusade is carrying a bunch with them. There are some really good trade goods in the area, and the distance to capital bonus is tangible in the holy lands. One assassin can probably protect several merchants and your surrounding generals, etc, and I believe this could QUICKLY turn the holy lands into a profitable investment.
1) Garrisonned Pilgrims. Again, only 90 upkeep and 35 to recruit. I think you have to recruit them back in catholic lands though before you launch to sea.
2) Diplomacy. A big problem with my Antioch crusade was the Byzantines to the north and a freak Moorish army dwelling inexplicably around the Cilician gates. After taking Antioch and Egyptian held Aleppo, I'm in an inescapable war with Egypt, but my real problem has been having to keep a large enough garrison in both Aleppo and Antioch so as not to entice the Moors or Byzantines to attack, as both are of Neutral-Very Poor status right now. If I have leave a small garrison in either city, one of them attacks seeing opportunity. (OK, I admitted, I cheated by reloading after ending a turn once, this is how I found out...)
If I would have made more of a diplomatic effort with each nation earlier and more often, I think I'd wouldn't have to worry as much about an attack from either. I can't even afford a war I can win with either country right now, they are both trading partners. I have a Diplomat on the way who will hopefully rectify this situation, as it is though, I have to keep up huge garrisons which are not cost effective...
3) MERCHANTS! Man, I wish I had thought to send these guys earlier, but my 2nd crusade is carrying a bunch with them. There are some really good trade goods in the area, and the distance to capital bonus is tangible in the holy lands. One assassin can probably protect several merchants and your surrounding generals, etc, and I believe this could QUICKLY turn the holy lands into a profitable investment.
Originally Posted by Musashi:
Actually you don't need to exterminate anything, if you follow my method...
Pick one province to produce priests from on the FIRST turn of the game. And have it produce a priest basically every turn. Send them all to the holy land. B y the time they get there they will have gained some skill from travelling (And from taking out any heretics you see along the way of course). Plant one in Antioch, one in Acre, one in Jerusalem, one in Aleppo, etc.
Now by the time the first crusade is called they'll likely all be cardinals and the regions will all have 40-60% catholicism. Attach a spy to your crusade army and send them off.
You'll have no problems at all.
That's good advice; it worked for me as Spain when finishing off the Moors. Just send priests as an advance guard, have 'em stand near the cities/castles. By the time your invading army gets there, it's a half Catholic province. It almost feels a little overpowered (ONE priest converts half the province? Must be an awfully charismatic guy!).Actually you don't need to exterminate anything, if you follow my method...
Pick one province to produce priests from on the FIRST turn of the game. And have it produce a priest basically every turn. Send them all to the holy land. B y the time they get there they will have gained some skill from travelling (And from taking out any heretics you see along the way of course). Plant one in Antioch, one in Acre, one in Jerusalem, one in Aleppo, etc.
Now by the time the first crusade is called they'll likely all be cardinals and the regions will all have 40-60% catholicism. Attach a spy to your crusade army and send them off.
You'll have no problems at all.
My way to keep the holy land is not to actually keep it but to sack it. That way you can gain huge profits.
What I did in my VH/VH campaign with Venice was to capture Jerusalem, hold it for a few turns, then pull my men out and recruit a few mercs. Afterwards I marched onto Acre, meanwhile Jerusalem rebelled. I took Jerusalem again (sacking again, too - both times I got 17k), fended off a small Egyptian invasion force. By then my priests had it converted to 80% Catholicism so I was able to leave. So I called a crusade on Antioch and took Damascus and Antioch (Antioch sacked for 30k or so). Now I am fighting off the Egyptians and I found out that by now the Holy Land actually pays for itself with about 3k per turn (got two stacks there by now) and I'm able to easily defend against the Egyptians - the Seljuks are currently occupied with the Byzantines and I can keep one of the stacks in Antioch to keep the order until my priests converted that.
From this I conclude that it might be wisest to just sack settlements in the area until you converted it over to Catholicism. When that happened, you can hold the settlements. Each time you sack Jerusalem or Antioch will give you 15k-30k so it easily pays for itself and more. With Venice I was actually able to field a military force a lot stronger than any of my opponents' throughout most of the game so far.
What I did in my VH/VH campaign with Venice was to capture Jerusalem, hold it for a few turns, then pull my men out and recruit a few mercs. Afterwards I marched onto Acre, meanwhile Jerusalem rebelled. I took Jerusalem again (sacking again, too - both times I got 17k), fended off a small Egyptian invasion force. By then my priests had it converted to 80% Catholicism so I was able to leave. So I called a crusade on Antioch and took Damascus and Antioch (Antioch sacked for 30k or so). Now I am fighting off the Egyptians and I found out that by now the Holy Land actually pays for itself with about 3k per turn (got two stacks there by now) and I'm able to easily defend against the Egyptians - the Seljuks are currently occupied with the Byzantines and I can keep one of the stacks in Antioch to keep the order until my priests converted that.
From this I conclude that it might be wisest to just sack settlements in the area until you converted it over to Catholicism. When that happened, you can hold the settlements. Each time you sack Jerusalem or Antioch will give you 15k-30k so it easily pays for itself and more. With Venice I was actually able to field a military force a lot stronger than any of my opponents' throughout most of the game so far.
Yeah. If you are going to pay a full stack, make them earn it! I take the holy lands quite early so Im getting about half those numbers when I sack Jerusalem. I think if I sack the place multiple times it will pay my troops and buy me a bit of time to reinforce my economy.
I should mention that I tend to play wealthy factions like France and Venice, so it may be a bit easier for me than for someone playing say, the HRE or England...
it sounds to me you are not being agressive enough. on every h/h camapaign i have had i have not had any problem holding the holy land.
Firstly head to the holy land in force. ideally send at least two armies there. deffinately send several generals so it is possible to split the armies up further and recruit as much of the cheap mercs as possible. in general you want to try and recruit the cheap mercs whenever it is possible to do so. the quality ones will give you your army in the holy land and the pilgrim types can be garrisons.
(Another tip non-specific to saving the holy land is that i always hold out on actually taking the crusade taget until i have gone through all my armies and made sure i can get all the crusade benefits possible out of them.
i.e it is often useful, just before you take the city to make all your armies join the crusade. as it is only for that turn you dont have to worry about moving in the right direction and can get bonus mercs and movement points for one turn)
Secondly- if possible on your way to take the target take a few cities, e.g cairo and gaza if you were moving along the south med coast or antioch and damscus if moving down the tukish coast
Thirdly- when you take a city in the holy land slaughhter the islamic inhabitants they are nothing but trouble. after that you should have no trouble maintianing order with a small garrison.
once you have taken the crusade target take the remaining egyptian cities. this really shouldnt be too difficult. where possible ignore their field armies and just lay seige to their cities with a full stack. they rarely respond adquately and you can keep taking their cities until their faction is destroyed. this should generate plenty of money and protect your sourthern border.
finally- as you recruit milita units start dispanding the pilgrims, they are a shite unit and are not worth their upkeep when you dont need them.
p.s dont forget to prepare for the mongol invasion, it hits the region around 1215 if i recall. they always eem quite keen on antioch so try and protect that as best as possible. if you can mamnage to engineer a bridge figfht with them you should be able to kill them in large numbers
good luck!
Firstly head to the holy land in force. ideally send at least two armies there. deffinately send several generals so it is possible to split the armies up further and recruit as much of the cheap mercs as possible. in general you want to try and recruit the cheap mercs whenever it is possible to do so. the quality ones will give you your army in the holy land and the pilgrim types can be garrisons.
(Another tip non-specific to saving the holy land is that i always hold out on actually taking the crusade taget until i have gone through all my armies and made sure i can get all the crusade benefits possible out of them.
i.e it is often useful, just before you take the city to make all your armies join the crusade. as it is only for that turn you dont have to worry about moving in the right direction and can get bonus mercs and movement points for one turn)
Secondly- if possible on your way to take the target take a few cities, e.g cairo and gaza if you were moving along the south med coast or antioch and damscus if moving down the tukish coast
Thirdly- when you take a city in the holy land slaughhter the islamic inhabitants they are nothing but trouble. after that you should have no trouble maintianing order with a small garrison.
once you have taken the crusade target take the remaining egyptian cities. this really shouldnt be too difficult. where possible ignore their field armies and just lay seige to their cities with a full stack. they rarely respond adquately and you can keep taking their cities until their faction is destroyed. this should generate plenty of money and protect your sourthern border.
finally- as you recruit milita units start dispanding the pilgrims, they are a shite unit and are not worth their upkeep when you dont need them.
p.s dont forget to prepare for the mongol invasion, it hits the region around 1215 if i recall. they always eem quite keen on antioch so try and protect that as best as possible. if you can mamnage to engineer a bridge figfht with them you should be able to kill them in large numbers
good luck!
Originally Posted by BigTex:
Not to mention your going to be enduring turns of low taxes for awhile so they'll bounce back to full piety.
Not to change the subject here, but is keeping taxes low one way of increasing piety for a governor in that settlement? I have had no luck with piety and have had to cower in fear when inquisitors wander over, this is useful information. It's probably another well-known fact that I knew nothing about.Not to mention your going to be enduring turns of low taxes for awhile so they'll bounce back to full piety.
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