Can you explain...Cavalry Vs Spearmen

[SoxSexSax]

Can you explain why it is possible for a unit of heavy cavalry to charge the front of a standard spearmen unit with guard position on, do significant (i.e. 15-20%) damage on the charge, IMMEDIATELY pull back out (losing, at most, 5 troops if the spear controller is lucky), then recharge and rout it?

I ask because standard spearmen appear practically useless in a competitive game right now.

[Monarch]

Spearmen arn't phalanxes type units unless you're taling about pikeman, they stand just as much chance when being charged as any sword unit.

I've found you've got to try and get the cav units bogged down. Often in my battles "cavalry" wars start up at the side of where infantry is going h2h. Winner of this gets to flank with remaining cav. Throwing a spear unit in will help you beat all his cav. And if he tries to pull them back your cav can easily chase and bog them down again (and whilst he's moving them away he'll lose quite a few units)

However I too havn't found spears that useful. I usually only get them when playing certain factions like say hungary who only have one solid inf unit (men at arms) and they start to get rediculously expensive after you get over the 4 limit.

[Sephriel]

actually, imo its quite realistic. spearmen have no way to slow down the force of the kinetic energy of a cavalry charge. observing such a clash, you see that cavalry kills quite some percentage of the enemy spearman on first impact. cheap spearmen then rout, while better armoured ones or more experienced ones engage the cavalry then in hand to hand combat, slaughtering the horsemen if they dont immediately pull out. if you can bind a cavalry unit in meelee, they are as good as dead. a way of dealing with this is counterattacking a unit of charging cavalry with your own horsemen - there will be nearly no impact of the charge. while binding the enemy cavalry like this, move in with your spearmen. this is about the most effective method of dealing with charging cavalry without pike formations.

Edit: This post is referring to the total war engine. in reality its quite different (psycolochic aspects and so on), but in the end, the effect of a cavalry charge is imo the most realistic as you can get it with such an engine ;)

[Massi]

I start to believe, after somebody knowledgeable told me, that, actually, this story of the kinetic energy of the armored knight is just trash. No horse, unless utterly stupid, would charge against a wall made of bricks, as well as against a wall of spears.

The effectiveness of a cav charge lied almost entirely in what the enemy infantry FEARED would have happened at the impact.

In truth, what was happening was one of the 3 following possibilities:

1) the infantry broke and run, ending to be slain during the flight
2) the knights were realising that the enemy infantry would stand and they retreated to try a new charge
3) the horses slowed down and the knights were trying to use the last impulse to use their long lance to hit. This way the effect of the charge was very, very small

So, a wall of spear being demolished by the MOMENTUM of a cavalry charge is just TRASH, it is NOT historical, it is not AT ALL for a nice gameplay.

spear<sword<horse<spear is NECESSARY, please, give it back to us.

[Massi]

and I would add, think about Ghandy and the demonstrants "fighting" the british cavalry by just "lying" on the ground, fending off the attempt of the military to walk on them. This fact is more historical than the cavalry charge of the english cavalry in Braveheart.

(sorry for the english explanation, just I need some freshness to make good formulations)

[Sephriel]

erm... now, but think about the length of those spears those militia spearmen use... they are perhaps about 1.5 - 2 meters (roughly guessed), to be able to use it in battle you have to hold it at its barycentre. the peak of those spears will in the end be at about the level of the shield... this is no wall of pointy sticks. with such thrusting spears you have a good reach when stabbing, in the attack, but not when trying to withstand a cavalry charge. fighting with a shield and a one handed wielded spear, you cant use your spear to defend, you will only try to hold your spear in a way that it wont hinder your shield. so much for the wall of spears.

when speaking about a pike or halberd formation, i agree with you, there wont be horses charging in that.
but charging into those spearman, where the ones in the second line wont be able to fight at the same time as their foremen, thats an other story.
and youre right: the psycolochic effect is the biggest one: probably most of the soldiers will try to evade the charge (and especially the attacking knight with his lance! (which he will probably break at the first enemy (this much to repeating charges ;) ) ) ), try to run away in the last moment and the ones still standing in line (though not in a real formation anymore) will just get trampled down or pinned on a 3 meter lance. remember: we now speak of the short spears (1.5 - 2 meters) not the pikes (ca. 2.5-5 m) nor the halberts (about 2.5 - 3 m) ;)

[JeffBag]

Use archers behind spearmen to disrupt the cavalry formation as they are tightening up for their 'perfect charge', even if you kill nothing, some of them will lag behind and cause the entire unit to try to reform, then you can kill all those horses.

[Massi]

Jeff, the spears should alone be able to repel, stop or at least delay a cavalry unit ALONE.

Sephriel, sorry , but I think the point is another one: wall of pointy sticks or not, the horses are not stupid: they will NOT charge against a steady formation of men, spears, swords, or even demonstrants! As they wuold not charge against a wall of bricks!

A formation of trained, high morale infantry will stay steady against any charge. And it will take almost no casualty of it!!! The ensuing fight will then decide, but charge of the cavalry has NOTHING to do with the momentum of the horse.


PS: I was also of your opinion, Sephriel, than a forum mate in TotalwarItalia, Mitra76, clarified this point to me. I was, I must admit, schocked to see the difference between what I thought obvious and the actual reality.

[RTKBarrett]

Guys someone who weighs 11 stone cannot hold his ground with a small stick and shield against a medieval equivalent of a tank...
If u were hit by one, u like the spearman within the game would probably break the olympic world record for high and long jump in a single go.

[Massi]

can you read the post above?

a horse IS NOT WILLING TO CHARGE AND HIT AN INFANTRY MAN, in facts, it almost never happened. Is it so difficult to understand?

[Puzz3D]

Guys someone who weighs 11 stone cannot hold his ground with a small stick and shield against a medieval equivalent of a tank.

It's not one spearman. It's a whole unit of spearmen. The spearmen are packed closer together than the horses. So, each horse is facing more than one spear.

[SoxSexSax]

In the original MTW, even normal spearmen could mincemeat cavalry. When I say mincemeat, I'm not saying EVERY frontal charge from a cav unit against spears failed, but you would ALWAYS take significant casualties on the charge.

I've literally just come from an online game where I took an infantry heavy army (including 4 pikes and 4 spears) and my opponent took almost all cavalry. I got destroyed. Do I (with hand firmly on heart) think anyone else could have done any better? No not really. What are you supposed to do when, right from the get go, he charges 18 cavalry at you, collides and does almost 20% damage to your army, then pulls out with only 10% losses to his cav, then immediately recharges and routs half my troops? Not a lot...

If spearmen ARE meant to be the way they are, this game is already pretty much finished for me. If it's a bug, or an acknowledged imbalance, then that's fine, get on with it and fix it please CA. If it's working as intended...yet another TW game takes a step back.

I, for one, really, REALLY hope the current cav/spear balance is not how CA intended...otherwise I've wasted &#163;25.

[RTKBarrett]

Ok so if a horse in all history was never willing to charge an infantry man then what use were they massi?
Thats difficult to understand... And dont treat me like a fool as ive played the game long enough.

[Orda Khan]

The use of pikes in Late era I can understand, horse armour and armour in general was improved. In High era the spears should be adequately up to the job. A frontal charge into a formation of spears should not result in 20% loss of spears. Rear or flank, fair enough but definitely not frontal

.....Orda

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

I honestly can't care less about whether a horse can or can't charge into a wall of spears.

What I really care about is gameplay. That's all. If pike can't defeat cavalry, then there is a gameplay problem, the game is worse for it, and the historical reality that support or don't support that is not going to make the game better...

Back to gameplay: is anyone facing the same issue SoxSexSax have? Is the game turning into a cavalry festival? If it is the case, then CA got a gamebalance issue to work on...

Louis,

[SoxSexSax]

I honestly can't care less about whether a horse can or can't charge into a wall of spears.

What I really care about is gameplay. That's all. If pike can't defeat cavalry, then there is a gameplay problem, the game is worse for it, and the historical reality that support or don't support that is not going to make the game better...

Back to gameplay: is anyone facing the same issue SoxSexSax have? Is the game turning into a cavalry festival? If it is the case, then CA got a gamebalance issue to work on...

Louis,

I posted two replays of myself using an all cav army in another thread, and I'll link them here too. If you need more evidence than my word, watch them. The first, especially, is pretty dismal to watch if you like balance...the guy has literally no chance despite having what I would call a "balanced" army:

http://geocities.com/russdlamb/replays.zip

[UglyandHasty]

Well i still have to face an all horse army. I play at 10k so i dont think i'll saw that. All horse at 10k wont have 20 units. I face all horses at 10k, but the guy had less than 10 units.

[Monarch]

I've seen one in a 3v3. But it was vs randoms and we where all on ts, the guy took his cav all the way around the back of us. So we where able to treble team him with our cav.

[SoxSexSax]

Well i still have to face an all horse army. I play at 10k so i dont think i'll saw that. All horse at 10k wont have 20 units. I face all horses at 10k, but the guy had less than 10 units.

With England, at 10k florins, I can create a 19 cav army. True, this is sans general and 5 of the cav are light, but I'd still wager big money on beating almost anybody with it who didn't have a similar imbalanced army.

[Cheetah]

What are you supposed to do when, right from the get go, he charges 18 cavalry at you

Stop playing 16k or higher in fact stop playing higher than 10k.

[Cheetah]

In High era the spears should be adequately up to the job. A frontal charge into a formation of spears should not result in 20% loss of spears. Rear or flank, fair enough but definitely not frontal

.....Orda

Actually the causulties are usually much higher, it is between 50% and 75% for a frontal charge vs standing spears. There is no spearmen unit which has a better chance (in any era). If your spear unit is moving when cavs hit (with a proper charge) then your spears die on the spot (in fact it holds for any other inf unit).

[Cheetah]

I honestly can't care less about whether a horse can or can't charge into a wall of spears.

What I really care about is gameplay. That's all. If pike can't defeat cavalry, then there is a gameplay problem,

Pikes can defat cavs (in fact spearmen can defeat pinned down cavs with ease, the trouble is the charge), and pikes can withstand the charge too.

Back to gameplay: is anyone facing the same issue SoxSexSax have? Is the game turning into a cavalry festival? If it is the case, then CA got a gamebalance issue to work on...

Louis,

SoxSexSax playing 16k or higher, and he knows very well that it allows for 20 heavy cav armies.

At 10k most factions can field only 12-14 cavs if you go for an all cav army. As Hasty said it is not a problem in general. Some factions might field more (like England with mailed knights -weakest feudal heavy cavs-, hobilars, etc) but then large part will be light, medium cavs. IMO more dangerous are those factions that can field around 14 cavs with good horse archers (like I assume the turkish army Massi was facing).

[Cheetah]

I posted two replays of myself using an all cav army in another thread, and I'll link them here too. If you need more evidence than my word, watch them. The first, especially, is pretty dismal to watch if you like balance...the guy has literally no chance despite having what I would call a "balanced" army:

http://geocities.com/russdlamb/replays.zip

You were playing 16k or higher, at 10k you can never have that army.

Your opponent in the first game had 8 sword units and no spears! I would hardly call it a balanced army.

Despite of this he was able to hold the center with swords and 1 heavy cav and rout your center cavs while still holding out the flank! That is not bad at all from a sword heavy army (it is true that the hill helped him, but terrain usually favours the defender if used properly).

Had he got 4 spears he could have won that (not sure of course) despite your 20 heavy cavs.

[Cheetah]

With England, at 10k florins, I can create a 19 cav army. True, this is sans general and 5 of the cav are light, but I'd still wager big money on beating almost anybody with it who didn't have a similar imbalanced army.

That is with England where you can do it because of the dirt cheap hobilars. With other factions you cannot have that many cavs. Also you can always play with less florins, like 9k if you think 10k is too much.

[Cheetah]

Just to avoid any misunderstanings: I too think that spearmen casulties are too high vs a head on cav charge (IMO it should be well below 50%, or at least there should be some elite spears which can hold a cav charge head on). Despite of this the game is reasonably well balanced at 10k and enjoyable.

[Puzz3D]

Despite of this the game is reasonably well balanced at 10k and enjoyable.

Without an inexpensive and effective anti-cav infantry unit, the game is not something I would enjoy playing.

In Samurai Wars, a 60 man spear costing 400 beats a 60 man heavy cav costing 1200 frontally. It's not black and white since the spear does take casualties and it takes a certain amount of time, but the spear will emerge as the winner of that matchup. The heavy cav can pull out and charge again, but it still won't win. Even with that effective anti-cav infantry unit present in the game, we still have to limit the money to 9k otherwise too many elite units show up in the battles. If we remove the effective anti-cav infantry unit from the game, the gameplay becomes less interesting because one component of a 4 component system is lost. We saw this effect in MTW/VI, and after playing 5000 battles in that crippled system, I know it's not something I'm interested in playing. I want 4 working components to coordinate in the battles.

[Cheetah]

Without an inexpensive and effective anti-cav infantry unit, the game is not something I would enjoy playing.
...
I want 4 working components to coordinate in the battles.

I understand it (and as I said I would be more happy with spears that can resist the charge better) but unlike MTW you have all the 4 components because spears by far the most efficient units when it comes to kill cavs (i.e. in general it is better to have spears than not to have), just you have to be careful with the charge.

[Massi]

Ok so if a horse in all history was never willing to charge an infantry man then what use were they massi?
Thats difficult to understand... And dont treat me like a fool as ive played the game long enough.

it is not only about the game, it is about this supposed "justification" that cavalry should just run down everything because it is "historical". When this is NOT TRUE! Now, I am sure you can understand that at my third post stating the same thing I get somewhat irritated.

@Cheetah:

I have played only 10k my games this week, and I have met three times an all cavs army.
They got 12 to 14 cavalry units, they can tear in pieces any army balanced between spears, swords, shooters and cav. Any. And even if you play late and add pikes, you find yourself with a pretty slow army, I am not sure it is supposed to be this way.

I am pretty sure, in few days you will start to see games "max 6 cav", "max 7cav". At that point, will you think the game is "balanced and enjoyable" at 10k?

Thats not whining or CA bashing!!!!! The bases for a good game are there, this one is much more promising than anything arrived after medieval-1.
I just want people understand that the cavalry charge must be reduced in effect A LOT!!!

[Cheetah]

I have played only 10k my games this week, and I have met three times an all cavs army.
They got 12 to 14 cavalry units, they can tear in pieces any army balanced between spears, swords, shooters and cav. Any.

Massi, were these armies all melee cavs or melee/shooter combos?

[Massi]

combos, I can recall only a german army with some... don't remember the name, gunpowder mounted units
another one was a turkish army, but I am not sure if there were archers there