Can you explain...Cavalry Vs Spearmen

[Lusted]

It would be. The workaround is adding half the shield value rounded up to armor, half shield vaule rounded down to defense skill. You then zero the shield value.

Works quite well apart from weakening missile units slightly. Makes spear units actually useful against cav.

[R'as al Ghul]

Makes spear units actually useful against cav.

Yes. I know you've gone a bit further with modding values in LtC and I don't want to start a mod discussion but, I found the results of the shield fix alone very satisfying. Spears could kill/hurt Cav even before (when bogged down) but they would've lost a good number of their unit to the Cav charge. Shiltrom didn't help there.
With only the shield fix applied, Cav charges don't kill as many spearmen on the first impact and Shiltrom does indeed make sense and is effective.
To obliterate the spear unit the Cavalry needs to pull out and reform before it can charge another time.
Seeing that the charges have been toned down a bit in 1.1, meaning that a stray pebble or bush can disrupt the charge, it's quite historical in so far as the formed charge of the knights was a rare thing. The formed charge in a line was highly dependant on the terrain at hand: open flat ground, dry and firm. An army expecting Knights would do everything to deny the knights their desired terrain advantage. To model this in a game is extremely difficult but for me there're indications that CA had good intentions to present a compromise between historical authenticity and gameplay.
I think the shield_fix is nice to have for SP right now but that can hardly be the last word. Once the shield bug is fixed by CA we may have to start the discussion all over again. I can already hear the "Cav are nerfed" outcries.

R'as

[Lusted]

Yes. I know you've gone a bit further with modding values in LtC and I don't want to start a mod discussion but, I found the results of the shield fix alone very satisfying.

Yes i have gone further in LtC, but the balancing discussions im having with Pala is mainly about small changes, not some fo the big ones i've made.

I think the shield_fix is nice to have for SP right now but that can hardly be the last word. Once the shield bug is fixed by CA we may have to start the discussion all over again. I can already hear the "Cav are nerfed" outcries.

I can imagine that as well. Apparently cav charges are being tweaked some more for 1.2, with them less easy to disrupt, and less switching to swords after 1 guy has met the enemy lines. so people will probably complain that cav are nerfed, but atm they're far too overpowered.

[Stig]

Works quite well apart from weakening missile units slightly. Makes spear units actually useful against cav.

mmmm sounds good

I can already hear the "Cav are nerfed" outcries.

I'm with you there

[R'as al Ghul]

Apparently cav charges are being tweaked some more for 1.2, with them less easy to disrupt, and less switching to swords after 1 guy has met the enemy lines. so people will probably complain that cav are nerfed, but atm they're far too overpowered.

I agree that they're overpowered now. I'm not sure I can follow you: less easy to disrupt+less switching to swords=nerfed cav? I think the opposite is more true!?
I'd like to see a proper charge where everybody uses his lance but I don't want to see whole units (perhaps some light ones) completely destroyed on impact. That should take several charges.

Imagine your Cav had only one charge with lances (because they break on impact) and would've to fight with swords the rest of the battle or rally at a certain place on the battle map (camp) where they can get new lances

[Lusted]

I agree that they're overpowered now. I'm not sure I can follow you: less easy to disrupt+less switching to swords=nerfed cav? I think the opposite is more true!?

But think about if the shield bug is fixed. It might be easier for cav to charge(already got changes in my mod that makes cav charges easier) but units wont just die from one charge.

I'd like to see a proper charge where everybody uses his lance but I don't want to see whole units (perhaps some light ones) completely destroyed on impact. That should take several charges.

Same here, and from what Jason has said thats what he wants to see as well.

[R'as al Ghul]

But think about if the shield bug is fixed. It might be easier for cav to charge(already got changes in my mod that makes cav charges easier) but units wont just die from one charge.

Ah, misunderstood you. We mean the same thing. Shield_fix nerfs the Cav.

Same here, and from what Jason has said thats what he wants to see as well.

to that

[Puzz3D]

But think about if the shield bug is fixed. It might be easier for cav to charge (already got changes in my mod that makes cav charges easier) but units wont just die from one charge.

Well I would say certain unit types should not die no matter how many frontal charges a cav unit makes on them. Those would be the infantry unit types specifically designed to defeat a cavalry unit.

[Lusted]

Well I would say certain unit types should not die no matter how many frontal charges a cav unit makes on them. Those would be the infantry unit types specifically designed to defeat a cavalry unit.

Like for instance pikemen, who have the spear wall formation that makes them pretty invulnerable to cavalry from the front.

[Puzz3D]

Like for instance pikemen, who have the spear wall formation that makes them pretty invulnerable to cavalry from the front.

And what other units? What is the gameplay design goal?

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Like for instance pikemen, who have the spear wall formation that makes them pretty invulnerable to cavalry from the front.

You mean, that shall make them invulnerable to cavalry from the front... Unfortunately it is not the case today, hence this topic.

Louis

[Lusted]

You mean, that shall make them invulnerable to cavalry from the front... Unfortunately it is not the case today, hence this topic.

Well im not sure about you, but if i've got my pikemen in spearwall formation and guard mode, and standing still, no cav can beat them as long as the pikemens flanks are protected.

[Fenix7]

Well im not sure about you, but if i've got my pikemen in spearwall formation and guard mode, and standing still, no cav can beat them as long as the pikemens flanks are protected.

Even if you click behind the unit not even attacking it?

[Paolai]

if you do not charge the pikes with cavs, but click behind the pike unit, cavs win.

[Stig]

if you do not charge the pikes with cavs, but click behind the pike unit, cavs win.

That's a work around, CA never thought anyone would come up with that.
Spears can defeat cav, unless you "cheat"

[Lusted]

Even if you click behind the unit not even attacking it?

I don't do that, i actually attack the enemy unit instead of doing something i consider an exploit. Plus the ai cannot use that exploit, so why should i? Im just giving myself an unfair advantage if i do.

[Paolai]

imho it is a bug, I mean I think pikes have a counter charge bonus. If they are not charged they have not that bonus and their formation is useless and fight in melee. Usually the stats of the pikes are not that high so they loose. I think this is the problem.

[Paolai]

That's a work around, CA never thought anyone would come up with that.
Spears can defeat cav, unless you "cheat"

nono just for pikes. You can charge spears frontally cliking on the unit. Spears have no counter charge bonus, just pikes...at least after my tests I suppose that.

[TosaInu]

CA never thought anyone would come up with that.
Spears can defeat cav, unless you "cheat"

Such bugs exist since STW and they have been mentioned again and again.
The swipebug was devastating in MTW VI 1.0, routing units in STW 1.0 went berserk. The run through is pretty existent in RTW.

Those things can happen to players unintentionally.

[x-dANGEr]

I wish you were there to complain about it in the case of the immortal Clibnariis.. ERE ones.. Who are supposed to be weaker than Persian ones.. Yeah right.. Sorry for Off-topic..

[Puzz3D]

That's a work around, CA never thought anyone would come up with that. Spears can defeat cav, unless you "cheat"

CA is well aware of the click behind, and they fixed the problem in MTW/VI v2.01. They referred to it as the infinite charge bug.

I don't do that, i actually attack the enemy unit instead of doing something i consider an exploit. Plus the ai cannot use that exploit, so why should i? Im just giving myself an unfair advantage if i do.

You still don't get it. If you don't do it, you're going to loose in multiplayer because the other players are going to do it. Plenty of very good players used the click behind in MTW v1.1 all the time, and you couldn't stop them from doing it.

I'd still like to know what the gameplay design goal is.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

That's a work around, CA never thought anyone would come up with that.
Spears can defeat cav, unless you "cheat"

I am fairly confident that anyone who played any game of the TW series in any clan competition is going to try to "click behind" in the next 20 minutes after install.
(otherwise, they deserve to lose)

It's one of the oldest trick in the TW bag... It was the basic behind the swipe bug 5 years ago

Louis,

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

I don't do that, i actually attack the enemy unit instead of doing something i consider an exploit. Plus the ai cannot use that exploit, so why should i? Im just giving myself an unfair advantage if i do.

Yes... But it's irrelevant to a discussion in Multiplayer forum. Be sure human will use any "feature" available.

When it comes to pikes vs cav with AI, I wish the AI would learn to actually HOLD. AI trying to reform after a charge is one of the reason AI pike lose vs human cavalry in custom test.

Louis,

[ElmarkOFear]

I just noticed that today Louis. I never really looked closely at the animations before, but after a cav charge they move around with thier pikes pointed straight up, until they get back in position, then they lower them again, but it is a long time in between.

[Lusted]

You still don't get it. If you don't do it, you're going to loose in multiplayer because the other players are going to do it. Plenty of very good players used the click behind in MTW v1.1 all the time, and you couldn't stop them from doing it.

I don't play multiplayer much, mainly due to modding. I didn't even know this really existed til people started to talk about it for RTw. It would certainly be a good thing to fix, but i can imagine it being quite complex as it;d probably require changing a lot of the game engine code.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

I just noticed that today Louis. I never really looked closely at the animations before, but after a cav charge they move around with thier pikes pointed straight up, until they get back in position, then they lower them again, but it is a long time in between.

There is also the "reforming" text when you hoover your mouse above the pike: most of the time, the pike try to reform behind the cav so it get flanked in the process.

So you can't really rely on custom test vs AI, because AI, even in 1 unit vs 1 unit, both engaged, does silly mistakes...

However clikcing behind is quite telling, even before the AI is trying to "reform"

Louis,

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

I don't play multiplayer much, mainly due to modding. I didn't even know this really existed til people started to talk about it for RTw. It would certainly be a good thing to fix, but i can imagine it being quite complex as it;d probably require changing a lot of the game engine code.

As far as I know, only MTW/ VI 2.01 got it right, at the price of cavalry sometimes being stuck in units, it was part of anti swipe coding. It is complex indeed. However MTW II saving grace is a much larger difference between non charging behaviour and charging behaviour with cavalry and a much larger difference between spearwall and non spearwall formation for pike
The problem we face today is that:

- spearwall pike > charging cav (well, not really actually, but that would be easy to fix)
- spearwall pike < walking cav ( no anti charging bonus in play?)
- non spearwall pike < charging cav

And what is needed is:
- spearwall pike > charging cav (way more than today)
- spearwall pike > walking cav (whether there is a charging bonus or not)
- non spearwall pike < charging cav

Intuitively, I'd give pike in spearwall a large bonus vs cav, whether it is charging or not. If non spearwall pike dies, then so be it.
That still left us with spear issues: how to get it out of the bottomless pit?

I'd recommand you play a lot more MP for modding purposes, if only because it makes testing units alot easier

Louis,

[Carl]

My advice when using Pikes, even in vanillia is to take them off guard mode, they fight a LOT better like that in my expirance and don't do the stupid reform thing. What happens with that is that the replacments from the rear ranks try to take the places of the dead guys and because of this they have to walk right past the cav and won't atack whilst doing this. Take em of Guard Mode and they don't so this and everyone in the formation fights who can get a pike. They even lower thier pikes when an enemy gets near when like tis so they can recive cav charges well and the walkthrough trick won't work.

[Lusted]

That still left us with spear issues: how to get it out of the bottomless pit?

Shield bug, its the one thing really messing up spears v cav. Once its fixed, spears will actually be useful.

I'd recommand you play a lot more MP for modding purposes, if only because it makes testing units alot easier

Can't play mp when you've modded the game and want to test your modded stats unless you have someone to play against who has the latest version of your modded files.

[pike master]

yea its pretty clear now that cav are not getting tangled up. i mean if they hit the front of the unit and then retreated to regoup is one thing but when they are completely entangled in a melee and can run out of it in any direction without recieving significant casualties is proof that cav mechanics need to be addressed.