Russia's new approach to dealing with "extremists"

[Kralizec]

Truly unbelievable

This had better be fake.

[Ice]

The irony is, one of its functions is to battle extremism.

I can believe it though, it's Russia. I doubt it's fake.

[Don Corleone]

The only part of the story I find difficult to believe is that Putin would be so foolishly arrogant as to parade his policy of assination worldwide. Even Bush wears the figleaf that we don't engage in personal assinations unless the target is a known terrorist that has killed Americans. For the Russians, the burden is reduced to 'simply tick Putin off'. Maybe one of these days, my European friends will wake up and realize we're not the 'evil empire', somebody else owns that title.

[CrossLOPER]

Russian news sites that are pretty open about such matters mention nothing of the sort. I am still looking. News such as this would be announced here.

If it is real, I question both its nature and necessity. This policy is nothing new. It has been in effect on differing terms since the Soviet Union came about and was quite healthy long after. It was monitored much like any other special operations dealing and was never used to target anyone too "innocent".

Besides, Britain has its share of Russian bandits and I would not be surprised that Litvinenko got himself into some trouble without help from Federal assassins.

EDIT: I look after all of you with close eyes...

[lars573]

I seriously doubt Czar Vladimir Putin I is that brazen. He may be a lot of things (saintly not being among them), but he's not that stupid. When I say he I mean the man personally. He seems to have more than a few dimwitted sycophant underlings who are will do such moronic things. Thinking that it's still 70's USSR and you can say "It never happend!" and people will believe you.

[CrossLOPER]

I seriously doubt Czar Vladimir Putin I is that brazen. He may be a lot of things (saintly not being among them), but he's not that stupid. When I say he I mean the man personally. He seems to have more than a few dimwitted sycophant underlings who are will do such moronic things. Thinking that it's still 70's USSR and you can say "It never happend!" and people will believe you.

I suppose that a similar parallel can be drawn along side westerners who believe everything they read and make odd assumptions.

[lars573]

I only believe what falls into my judegements about something. Putin for example I get many impressions from photos and video clips. I see a man who is cool, calculating, in control, ruthless, and above all smart. There is nothing in his body langauge or expressions that give any indication that he'd sign off on some the more troubling foregin policy actions. IE the things that have happened outside Russia. He seems to have taken to heart Stalin's lesson of, you can get away with a helluva lot inside your own borders.


However he could just be good at putting on a public face to hide that he's really that macho and short sighted.

[BDC]

Well there is another way of putting it...

The Russian chap in London was killed by someone who had ready, recent access to fairly advanced reactors and labs. Specialist stuff. Whoever did it was also an idiot because there are only a few places in the world where that could happen.

Putin also apparently makes silly obvious mistakes (kind of anyway) at times.

Conclusions?

[cegorach]

However he could just be good at putting on a public face to hide that he's really that macho and short sighted.

It is both.

Clearly he is ruthless and clever with cold, calculating mind, but just let me remind the meeting in Lahti Finland couple of weeks ago - he lost controll snapping at not only Poland and the Balts (that is the 'usual' Putin), but even at Spain ( 'which is no less corrupted than Russia') and Italy ( 'Mafia is Italian word').
Recently we have another similar reaction - to the 'meat' veto of Poland.
First claims that it is only two-countries affair, next blaming the quality of Polish meat, next when it is again verified by the EU it is all Polish chaos which allows smuggling, now after it is proven it is not true we have the snapping i.e. athreating to ban all EU meat products because of Romania and Bulgaria. Finally on Sunday we had the anti-Polish demonstration which accuses Poland for poisoning the Russians - in the country when hardly anyone demonstates anymore (except the skinheads) it is something surely supported by someone in the authorities, even if at local level.

This particular assassination might be linked to the FSB, but it is hard to tell, clearly the employed poison was very advanced.
In generall there is pretty large number of idiotic and zealous FSB agents and it is far from full professionalist too e.g. the assasination of Zelimkhan Yandarbiev in Quatar when the Russian agents were captured after the bomb killed not only the target, but many civilians as well.

I have read and heard numerous opinions of so called Russian 'experts' employed by Kremlin as advisors - many of them live in a dreamworld of a super-powerfull empire.

Currently Russian authorities are dominated by former KGB agents ( 'Petersburg faction') who are ruthless and treat the entire Human Rights thing as some sort of fashion which they do neither understand, nor treat seriously.

It is similar to the Chinese policy, but with less skill and grace - massive blunders are made from time to time, when things go in different direction e.g. during the Orange Revolution in the Ukraine 2 years ago there was a sort of desperation revealed in Kremlin circles - quelling the demonstation by military was proposed openly and unofficially and Putin managed to congratulate the false winner 2, even 3 times when the rest of the world condemned the rigged elections.


Overall if it goes well Putin is calm, but when it is not he snaps...

Don't forget that it is less monolithic regime than shown, there are many factions inside and traits which are used in the politics - recently the xenophobic and ultra-nationalistic ones.
It is not chaotic Yeltsin era, but still it is neither democracy nor a full dictatorship.
I wouldn't be suprised if non-Petersburg faction ordered the poisoning, but it could be just an another blunder of the FSB.

[yesdachi]

It’s the law every president wants.

[Don Corleone]

It’s the law every president wants.

Don't kid yourself, it's the law every head of state already has, including W. This is my point. Only a fool would close their eyes and say their government would never do such a thing. But only a bigger fool would actually have a law publicly passed confirming that they are indeed engaging in such a policy. That's the part that makes no sense to me. With our without the act passed by the Russian parliment, Putin could snuff somebody in London, or in East Peoria, Illinois for that matter, any time he feels like it. What could he possibly gain by having his legislative body draft a law confirming for all the world that he is in fact engaging in such activities and is authorized to do so.

What's more, it's a nonsense law. The Russian Parliment doesn't have that kind of authority that it can decide what's legal and what's illegal in other countries. Trust me, if one of Putin's assassins gets picked up in Barcelona for offing a particularly troubling CIA agent, that law isn't going to be worth the paper it's written on.

[cegorach]

Trust me, if one of Putin's assassins gets picked up in Barcelona for offing a particularly troubling CIA agent, that law isn't going to be worth the paper it's written on.

To us or to him ?

I remind you the Stalin's constitution of 1930s - many beautiful slogans which were violated on daily basis.

Russian legal tradition has one fatal flaw - noone really cares what is written, it is seen as the requirement of the civilied world to create certain rules, only to violate them when required. It is just to keep some people happy... a game of deceit as in the XVIIIth, XIXth and XXth century.

I must admitt it is quite bold though, never before it was announced so openly.

[yesdachi]

Don't kid yourself, it's the law every head of state already has, including W. This is my point. Only a fool would close their eyes and say their government would never do such a thing. But only a bigger fool would actually have a law publicly passed confirming that they are indeed engaging in such a policy. That's the part that makes no sense to me.

It is a power many heads of state have (even W) but not all of them have the power made into law.

I am not sure of the benefit of making this so public unless it is an attempt to make Putin (who I kind of like, he seems tough but not in an evil coo-coo sort of way) look bad.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I am not sure of the benefit of making this so public unless it is an attempt to make Putin (who I kind of like, he seems tough but not in an evil coo-coo sort of way) look bad.

I'm amazed, yesdachi. Putin is one of the most dangerous world leaders extant. He is leading his country back into the dictatorship and totalitarism that so bedevilled the last century.

He has completely stripped out any freedom of the press. He utilises state power for personal economic gain and to enrich friends - trampling over international treaties as he goes. He bullies other nations using both resource hegemony and military threats. He owns the political process and has eliminated almost all opposition - and that elimination includes assassination and subversion of the judicial process, such as it is. He is about to overturn the constitution to ensure he has a third term.

There's a huge level of evidence to implicate him in the Moscow apartment bombings, which he blamed on the Chechens, allowed him to start one of the most brutal wars of a brutal time, and secure his road to the presidency. (If you doubt me, look up the FSB and the Ryazan bomb discovery in 1999).

A certain kind of Russian likes this kind of strong man, as they liked Stalin. You will see many of them defending him. A free citizen should never think he is anything other than dangerous.

The west is so consumed by islamic terrorist threats, they can't see what goes on in this old enemy - perhaps because we connived at making Russia what it now is. It's ironic that the UK has warned about radioactive terror attacks but the people who actually contaminated parts of London with an isotope only available to government are supposed to be "friends".

[lars573]

Given how things are in Russia Putin (or a man like him) is the lesser evil. When the choices are your nation always being on the verge of socio-economic collapse or a much more stable dictatorship. What would you choose? I'd choose the dictatorship.

Russia is finding it's own way. We can't expect them to act like a western nation. They aren't geographically or culturally. In fact many in Russia look unfavorably on western ideals. Seeing them as being corrupt and trying to steal the position of proper Russian ones. I know exactly how that sounds, but the majority of Russians think Putin is the best way.

[CrossLOPER]

At all of you:

I think you are all too paranoid. That is all I really have to say.

[lars573]

I'm not paranoid about Russia, they're not out to get me and mine. But if I was from Ukraine, Belarus, Georgia, the baltic states, or any other former soviet republic I would be. Even then not really. After all it's only paranoia if there not out to get you. Putin's Russia has shown that it is out to get the former soviet republics.

[CrossLOPER]

Funny you should mention the CIS states. They are more oppressive and sometimes very cruel when compared to Russia.

[econ21]

If the BBC says there is such a law, I would be inclined to believe it. The BBC is quite a conservative (small "c") broadcaster and would be in big trouble if it were wrong on this. Russia is not exactly a two-bit country and would jump down the BBCs throat if this were incorrect. (Note - the BBC has been very careful to say there is no evidence of Russia's involvement in the recent London radiation poisioning death).

The less certain part of the report is about FSB assassinations etc. But on the law, there either is a law or there isn't.

[cegorach]

Funny you should mention the CIS states. They are more oppressive and sometimes very cruel when compared to Russia.

You have thrown all of those together in one basket.

Are the balts cruel, more than the Russian authorities ? How they can be in the EU ?

Is Georgia, or Ukraine or Moldavia involved in such crimes too ?


Please refrain from making general comments such like this.

[rory_20_uk]

I'd be truely dissapointed if Russia can not kill off dissidents more quietly than this. In London there is planty of gun grime, knive attacks, hit and runs to name 3 ways of doing it that would never be noticed. To choose something that so few can get hold of is either taking the piss or is someone operating who is not looking at the bigger picture.

Europe needs Russian gas and oil. Bar attacking Poland we're not doing anything - especially during winter!

[macsen rufus]

With this recent pollonium poisoning my impression is you can count the suspects on the finger of one finger, and this new law seems perfectly designed to excuse it. But Russia being Russia, and oligarchical collectivism(*) being what it is, the chances of the obvious being true tend to zero. Unless it's a double bluff.

We in the West can't get all sniffy about political assassinations - let's face it, Castro wouldn't have had to survive so many attempts on his life if the CIA were all boy scouts, now would he?

I think Cegorach put his finger on an important point talking about the factions within the (various) Russian secret services. Who knows which way various actors may be pulling? There could well be a strong anti-Putin force out to embarrass him; but I could so easily believe he's the one who pointed the finger too. I don't really know how fragmented the Russian power-blocs are. I don't believe Putin yet has the same grip Stalin had for instance, but don't doubt that he's tightening it all the time.

I'm not one to quote Churchill often, but this holds true today:

"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."

It's odd that the West seem to jump on Syria, Iran etc for exploiting our attention being on terrorism, when it's quite plain that Russia is also using the same smoke screen. Expect more surprises.....


(*) yep, that's an Orwell reference

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

I agree with Rory, and this is one of the reasons that I have some doubts about the Russians being responsible for the assassination. Why would they choose a horrendously obscure method which absolutely screams 'sinister KGB conspiracy!', when they could easily do it in a much less suspicious way.

[cegorach]

[QUOTE=rory_20_uk]

Europe needs Russian gas and oil.

Caspian Sea resources are a good alternative source, though it involves states such as Georgia - another hint why it is under economic pressure of Russia ?
But they want only georgian pipelines - nothing to be afraid.. of course...

Bar attacking Poland we're not doing anything - especially during winter!

I have't read UK press for some time - it is about the recent veto ?



@Big King Sanctaphrax

I agree with Rory, and this is one of the reasons that I have some doubts about the Russians being responsible for the assassination. Why would they choose a horrendously obscure method which absolutely screams 'sinister KGB conspiracy!', when they could easily do it in a much less suspicious way.

Remember the Ukrainian president's poisoning ? Though primitive it cannot be dismissed...

[lars573]

Funny you should mention the CIS states. They are more oppressive and sometimes very cruel when compared to Russia.

True. But only the ones Russia already "has" are the most cruel. That is the presidents of Belarus and Kazakstan. I seriously doubt that Lukashenka or Nazarbayev would do anything that Czar Putin didn't like.

Remember the Ukrainian president's poisoning ? Though primitive it cannot be dismissed...

That was probably some cold war KGB dinosaur bucking for promotion.

[Vladimir]

I agree with Rory, and this is one of the reasons that I have some doubts about the Russians being responsible for the assassination. Why would they choose a horrendously obscure method which absolutely screams 'sinister KGB conspiracy!', when they could easily do it in a much less suspicious way.

To intentionally throw suspicion on Russia and Putin himself. Who they are and why they did it is still unknown. Half a world away it seems to me like it may be hard-line nostalgic Russian mafia who want Russia to feel isolated and withdraw into itself, increasing suspicion and coaxing a return to the oligarchic police state of yore. Many former KGB officers became organized crime bosses after the reorganization and would have a lot to gain from this.

One of the suspected radioactive metals can be found in nuclear reactors AND in some photographic equipment (according to a news blurb). If this is true, it sends a subtle message not only to dissidents abroad but also to dissident domestic journalists. Don’t forget that he went to meet to someone to discuss the murder of an anti-Putin journalist in Russia.

All this seems very complex but it also very Russian. While their intelligence community is numerically smaller it is a far greater percentage of the population. A good non-fiction espionage book will reveal just how much the KGB, SVR, FSB, GRU, etc love operational games. With their manpower and mandate, they can afford to.

Something to never forget as well: Russia expands, that's what Russia does. I have >400 years of history to back me up.

[CrossLOPER]

You have thrown all of those together in one basket. Are the balts cruel, more than the Russian authorities ? How they can be in the EU ?

The Baltics States have and are discriminating against Russians. They have marked our language and citizenship invalid.

Is Georgia, or Ukraine or Moldavia involved in such crimes too ?

Georgia has a leadership which wastes money building palaces and is favorable to the Chechen cause. Ukraine and Belarus have much stronger restrictions on the media. Azerbaijan has interesting methods of causing fraudulent election results through "reform". Uzbekistan government has full control of the media. Kyrgystan has leaders who murder each other. Tajikistan has "difficulties" with elections. Turkmenistan has a huge list of human rights issues that Russia can't begin to approach. Kazakhstan has its own election problems, among other things.

Please refrain from making general comments such like this.

Well... I'm just trying to point out that Russia is not quite the evil country that people should be looking out for. I have yet to find any local announcement of this law from a source that I find reliable.

EDIT: Well, it was unfair. Armenia seems to be rather clean.

[Grey_Fox]

What if it's not meant to be secret? What if it's meant to send a message to various enemies of Putin that this is what will happen to them if they don't shut up?

[CrossLOPER]

True. But only the ones Russia already "has" are the most cruel. That is the presidents of Belarus and Kazakstan. I seriously doubt that Lukashenka or Nazarbayev would do anything that Czar Putin didn't like.

Should I bring up Egypt and Pakistan? The countries' tendencies cannot always reflect fully on dominating allies.

[cegorach]

[QUOTE=CrossLOPER]

The Baltics States have and are discriminating against Russians. They have marked our language and citizenship invalid.

Great, now I know who I am talking to.

Georgia has a leadership which wastes money building palaces and is favorable to the Chechen cause.

Ehh... can you tell me where is the cruelty here ? Also the Chechen supporting - do you say it is supporting terrorism ?
I would preferr quotes, links etc. Human Rights Watch, AI and similar NGOs + UN, European Council reports and so on, not Russian state TV. OK ?

Ukraine and Belarus have much stronger restrictions on the media.

Ukraine ? Are you joking ?