Russia's new approach to dealing with "extremists"

[CrossLOPER]

[QUOTE=cegorach]

Great, now I know who I am talking to.

??? Who?

Ehh... can you tell me where is the cruelty here ? Also the Chechen supporting - do you say it is supporting terrorism ?
I would preferr quotes, links etc. Human Rights Watch, AI and similar NGOs + UN, European Council reports and so on, not Russian state TV. OK ?

Where did I mention that I got my information from "Russian state TV"?

Ukraine ? Are you joking ?

... No?

[yesdachi]

I'm amazed, yesdachi. Putin is one of the most dangerous world leaders extant. He is leading his country back into the dictatorship and totalitarism that so bedevilled the last century.

Well, other than that he’s ok.

Russia seems like a rough and corrupt place, I see Putin as a “strongman” who is keeping his rough and corrupt country under control and even nearing… prosperous. Even Russia’s pussycat leaders have been tough mothers compared to most of our western leaders, Putin is no different.

“He has completely stripped out any freedom of the press”
This is not good but I don’t see this as completely bad, the press in the US is insanely powerful, often making the news rather than reporting in.

“He utilizes state power for personal economic gain and to enrich friends”
Doesn’t sound very nice but considering that the people he has wrestled the economic gain from were corrupt companies who often opposed the state or the people; I don’t see this as completely bad either.

“Trampling over international treaties as he goes”
It is difficult for me to say he is trampling when other countries are ignoring the same or similar treaties or agreements.

“He bullies other nations using both resource hegemony and military threats”
May not be nice but who doesn’t?

I don’t care much for the political control he has or how he has secured the position he is in and I do think Russia needs to be carefully monitored but Putin and Russia are not making wild threats of genocide or to wipe other countries off the map, He is struggling to control an unruly country while maintaining his authority and power without rape rooms, wmd use or ethnic cleansing . It’s just my 2 cents but I don’t see Putin or Russia as a “threat” like I see North Korea or Iran, Putin’s goals and self control are far more rational.

I am wide open to changing my mind on this topic, my information is limited but I do have some Russian friends that have given me a little insight.

[Pannonian]

Putin may be a tyrant, but he's a predictable, rational tyrant. Better that than anarchy, which was how the numerous Russian mafias started, and which could easily result in worse in a country as formerly powerful as Russia (imagine Iraq with nuclear weapons). As for the turned spy getting killed - isn't that part of the espionage game?

[rory_20_uk]

What if it's not meant to be secret? What if it's meant to send a message to various enemies of Putin that this is what will happen to them if they don't shut up?

Makes more sense. They can "officially" deny it, but very few others have the capacity, and no one else has the (obvious) motive.

[lars573]

Yet more proof that the biggest most powerful mafia don in Russia lives in the Kremlin.

[CrossLOPER]

Yet more proof that the biggest most powerful mafia don in Russia lives in the Kremlin.

Don't forget that he's a child molester.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Don't forget that he's a child molester.

Funny you should say that.

"He seemed to me very independent, very serious, but at the same time a boy is always vulnerable. He was very sweet. I'll be honest, I felt an urge to squeeze him like a kitten and that led to the gesture that I made, there was nothing behind it really,"

[Blodrast]

I've had, hmmm, 6 cats throughout my life, and I'll be damned if I ever felt the need to squeeze any of them!

[CrossLOPER]

Funny you should say that.

I was referring to just that.

Personally, I have never seen so much retardation over such a case. Why anyone would equate all kind of contact with children by an adult (Males I'm assuming?) as molestation is beyond me and is really telling of those that invent such silly notions.

Anyway, see what you can dig up about him being the anti-Christ.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I was referring to just that.

Personally, I have never seen so much retardation over such a case. Why anyone would equate all kind of contact with children by an adult (Males I'm assuming?) as molestation is beyond me and is really telling of those that invent such silly notions.

Anyway, see what you can dig up about him being the anti-Christ.

I believe you are studying in the US at present. Try lifting the shirt of a random child unconnected with you and frenching their belly-button over there.

I know that this sort of touching is less controversial in Russia, but Putin is supposed to be an international statesman. His explanation of being in thrall to an irrational emotional response is quite telling.

However, it is his human rights record and control of the levers of power in Russia that is the issue. You take a position not unfamiliar to me, whereby many Russians are completely unwilling to critically examine the actions of their president, preferring to cling to the old excuses of external intereference - a card recently played again by Putin.

It's very, very sad, because your country could be one of the greatest in the world for both culture, economy and eventually democracy. At present, corruption and the slide to totalitarism is throttling you all back to the Stone Age of the Soviet era.

There's not much point in arguing further with you, especially since you appear to believe, like President Putin, that any contrary viewpoint is retarded.

[cegorach]

If it

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6159343.stm

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Former Russian Prime Minister Yegor Gaidar is being treated in a Moscow hospital after falling violently ill on a trip to Ireland on 24 November.

Speculation is rife that he may have been poisoned. He fell ill a day after former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko died of radiation poisoning in London.

Mr Gaidar's daughter Maria said "doctors incline towards the view that his symptoms... indicate poisoning".

Mr Gaidar was rushed to intensive care in Dublin, then flown to Moscow.

Mr Gaidar, 50, suffered from a nose bleed and vomiting before fainting in Dublin last Friday, during a visit to promote his book The Death of Empire: Lessons for Contemporary Russia.

His daughter was quoted as saying he had eaten "a simple breakfast of fruit salad and a cup of tea".

Economic role

He has criticised President Vladimir Putin's economic policies, but is not regarded as a prominent political opponent of the Russian leader.

His programme of economic "shock therapy" under Mr Putin's predecessor Boris Yeltsin angered many Russians who saw their savings devalued. The programme lifted price controls and launched large-scale privatisations.

Maria Gaidar said she expected doctors to announce their diagnosis of his mystery illness on Friday.

"His condition is satisfactory and he is speaking, but he looks very bad - he looks pale and thin," she told Reuters news agency.

Anatoly Chubais, who oversaw Boris Yeltsin's privatisation programme and now heads Russia's electricity monopoly Unified Energy Systems, saw his illness as suspicious.

He linked the case to Mr Litvinenko's death and last month's murder of investigative reporter Anna Politkovskaya - both of whom were fierce critics of President Putin.

"The theory of attempted poisoning, attempted murder should undoubtedly be considered seriously," Mr Chubais told state-run Rossiya television.

"A chain of deaths of... Politkovskaya, Litvinenko and Gaidar would perfectly correspond to the interests and vision of those people who are openly talking about a forceful, unconstitutional change of power in Russia as a possible option."

is poisoning.... we have a big problem..

[Vladimir]

Good info, my source:

http://intelligence-summit.blogspot....ussian-pm.html

Mr Gaidar declined to comment about whether he believed he had suffered a poisoning attack. The news of his illness comes after a series of mysterious incidents involving Russian public figures over the past month. It emerged as the Kremlin and state-run television continued to suggest the murky world of Russia’s recent émigrés was behind the death of Mr Litvinenko.

[CrossLOPER]

....

Don't feel sorry for me as I am not the one who thinks "kiddie fiddling" (not referring to you)when I see children. I still think it's not much different than a US President or Governor handling a baby.

As for Putin and the Russian government, I am respectfully suggesting that the people of the US and the UK keep their eyes on their own governments.

Mr Gaidar's daughter Maria said "doctors incline towards the view that his symptoms... indicate poisoning".

..."indicate poisoning"... Lovely. Could they be more vague?

It emerged as the Kremlin and state-run television continued to suggest the murky world of Russia’s recent émigrés was behind the death of Mr Litvinenko.

I have still yet to find this "State Run Television/media network" that seems so awesome.

The sources I have say that Gaidar's doctors have said that his condition indicates that it is "definitely no poisoning that could not be from spoiled produce, and that the samples are in Ireland and results returned on December 4th.

I still say you all are paranoid. No doubt that Putin has designs, but poisoning random diplomats does not appear to be one of them.

LENTA.RU

[Vladimir]

Don't feel sorry for me as I am not the one who thinks "kiddie fiddling" (not referring to you)when I see children. I still think it's not much different than a US President or Governor handling a baby.

As for Putin and the Russian government, I am respectfully suggesting that the people of the US and the UK keep their eyes on their own governments.


..."indicate poisoning"... Lovely. Could they be more vague?


I have still yet to find this "State Run Television/media network" that seems so awesome.

The sources I have say that Gaidar's doctors have said that his condition indicates that it is "definitely no poisoning that could not be from spoiled produce, and that the samples are in Ireland and results returned on December 4th.

I still say you all are paranoid. No doubt that Putin has designs, but poisoning random diplomats does not appear to be one of them.

LENTA.RU

You're pushing yourlself more and more to the fringe.

And yes it is very much in the interest of the US and UK to keep tabs on Russia.

[CrossLOPER]

This is amazingly frustrating.

[Banquo's Ghost]

This is amazingly frustrating.

Yes, indeed it is. Especially when discussing things with someone who thinks the Russian media is not in effect, state controlled. But you're not the only Russian who ignores the reality of their country, sadly.

Oh, and by the way, thank you for advising me to keep my nose out of Russia's business but I'll respectfully decline. Mr Putin has repeatedly threatened the energy security of the EU, so that alone would be enough to take an interest in where his plans lie. In addition, my wife is Russian, and therefore I have family interests there - as well as knowing a bit about what I'm discussing. (Although this has its downside - New Year in Perm for me! Brrrr).

[CrossLOPER]

Yes, indeed it is. Especially when discussing things with someone who thinks the Russian media is not in effect, state controlled. But you're not the only Russian who ignores the reality of their country, sadly.

What is the reality of my country? Tell me so that my blinding ignorance can be cured.

Quit telling me that I am ignorant. I am very well aware of the situation in my country and I have this "amazing" ability that allows me to discern fact from total fiction.

Yes, some Russian media is restricted in certain aspects, but not run down to the point where the news is horrifyingly untrue. I do not trust some entities, but the ones I use I respected for their accuracy. The resources you have provided have information that is claimed to have been extracted from STM, but I have never seen nor heard any of that from ANY station. I would love to know the names of the stations so that I could investigate for myself, as I do in all cases.

Do NOT insult me by telling me I am naive "like most Russians". I will be willing to examine and concur on specifics, not generalizations.

I did not tell you to keep your nose out of Russian business. In fact, I am hoping that you try to learn as much as you can so that you can be more careful with making sweeping generalizations. What I did say was that I believe that the US and UK governments are not exactly showing perfect examples.

As for the energy issue, surely you must understand that the issues are of surrounding interests, though I admit that Russia is in an interesting situation where the our gas is so vital to the EU. It seems to me, however, that the core dispute is that the EU objects what Russia does with its own resources!

EDIT: How are you enjoying Perm?

[Banquo's Ghost]

What is the reality of my country? Tell me so that my blinding ignorance can be cured.

Quit telling me that I am ignorant. I am very well aware of the situation in my country and I have this "amazing" ability that allows me to discern fact from total fiction.

Yes, some Russian media is restricted in certain aspects, but not run down to the point where the news is horrifyingly untrue. I do not trust some entities, but the ones I use I respected for their accuracy. The resources you have provided have information that is claimed to have been extracted from STM, but I have never seen nor heard any of that from ANY station. I would love to know the names of the stations so that I could investigate for myself, as I do in all cases.

Do NOT insult me by telling me I am naive "like most Russians". I will be willing to examine and concur on specifics, not generalizations.

I did not tell you to keep your nose out of Russian business. In fact, I am hoping that you try to learn as much as you can so that you can be more careful with making sweeping generalizations. What I did say was that I believe that the US and UK governments are not exactly showing perfect examples.

As for the energy issue, surely you must understand that the issues are of surrounding interests, though I admit that Russia is in an interesting situation where the our gas is so vital to the EU. It seems to me, however, that the core dispute is that the EU objects what Russia does with its own resources!

EDIT: How are you enjoying Perm?

I wasn't aware that I had told you that you were ignorant or naive. Those charges I have laid against President Putin appeared to me to be specific and not generalized at all. The fact that you choose to accuse me in such a defensive manner after earlier characterising dissenting views from yours as retarded is telling.

I would concur with you that it is imperative that all citizens cast a critical eye over their own governments.

I think we have reached an impasse where nationalism overbears thought. Let us agree to disagree, and wait for the investigations to bear fruit.

Oh, and I'm not in Perm yet - my sister-in-law tells me its at -27 degrees right now. Argh. I'm trying to convince my wife that we should spend New Year safe and warm in our apartment in St Petersburg when we go over in December, but it's hard work. Like most Russians, she loves her home and she's damn stubborn.

[CrossLOPER]

I wasn't aware that I had told you that you were ignorant or naive. Those charges I have laid against President Putin....

I just believe that there is a clear line between a known, public figure playfully toying with a kid and some stranger...in their basement, that's all.

I do not permanently tie myself down to alliances or memberships or organized beliefs of any kind because I believe that they at some point they will fail or stray. However, I am upset that some one is implying that I am unable to acknowledge another perspective or that I am a (dirty, rotten) nationalist.

I have not said that my country is perfect. I am quite upset with how some business is run here and how many things need to be get done rather ruthlessly at times. I think that Putin is overstepping his bounds in some cases, though I believe that he is doing the right thing in critical times. Russia is not being kind and it needs a strong, yet mindful, leader.

Really, Putin can be viewed as quite rough at times, but I believe that he has little choice. Russia has enemies within and without, and until there is tangible stability that everyone can feel, I believe that this is the course to take.

Also, yes. I am interested to know what the results reveal. I believe there will be consistency.

[Adrian II]

Especially when discussing things with someone who thinks the Russian media is not, in effect, state controlled.

Well, is it? Today the BBC ran the following round-up of the Russian press:

Litvinenko affair divides Russian press

The death in London of former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko gives the Russian press much to think about. Some view the resultant furore in the West as an attempt to put pressure on Moscow; others see the death as an implicit warning to other defectors of the 'long hand of the Kremlin'.

If the Russian press were state-controlled, no outlet would dare speculate on the 'long hand of the Kremlin' being responsible for Mr Litvinenko's death.

Apparently all is not rotten in the state of Russia.

[cegorach]

Television is generally state controlled by the state or state run companies as Gasprom,
Radio - I have no idea, but I have heard it is not too popular anyway,

Press is sometimes quite independent, but it is not too influantial (not too many readers) - television is the most popular so its range is the greatest.

[CrossLOPER]

You are thinking NTV.

Television news was never reliable. I disagree with the terms and biases. This is why avoid the news stations and go for the independent commentators. Sometimes, radio and internet are the better answer. Newspapers vary.

[Vladimir]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061130/.../russia_gaidar

MOSCOW - Doctors treating former Russian Prime Minister Yegor Gaidar believe he was poisoned, an aide said Thursday.

Edit: Gaidar is unpopular among many Russians who blame the liberal, Western-backed economic policies he pursued as prime minister for the decline in their living standards following the Soviet collapse.

I take it they've forgotten the "decline" in their living/dying standards that they suffered to get to their previous state.

[Adrian II]

I take it they've forgotten the "decline" in their living/dying standards that they suffered to get to their previous state.

Western 'shock therapy' for Russia in the 1990's didn't help much either. It was a recipe for disaster.

I concur with cegorach. This Russian 'polonium terrorism' - whether it originates with Putin or not - better be one huge misunderstanding. If not, then we have one huge problem on our hands.

[Vladimir]

Well the whole radiation incident certainly has exploded and will take a while to fade. Let's hope MI-5 isn't asleep at the wheel.

No that wasn't intended to be a radioactive half-life joke.

[Aenlic]

Western 'shock therapy' for Russia in the 1990's didn't help much either. It was a recipe for disaster.

I concur with cegorach. This Russian 'polonium terrorism' - whether it originates with Putin or not - better be one huge misunderstanding. If not, then we have one huge problem on our hands.

The really scary part is the nature of the isotope polonium 210.

A fatal dose can be as small as 0.1 micrograms. That's 1/10 of a millionth of a gram. Invisible to the naked eye. Smaller than a speck of dust. That's if ingested. Inhaled, it is fatal in even smaller amounts.

Luckily, polonium 210 is an alpha emitter only. So it is only harmful if ingested, absorbed or inhaled. You can't be harmed just from proximity to the source, as you could be from a gamma emitter.

The bad news is that polonium 210 becomes airborne by itself. At temperatures greater than 135 degrees Fahrenheit, it vaporizes into extremely small amounts. Since polonium 210 is an active alpha emitter with a half-life of only 138 days, even less than a gram of it produces its own heat, easily reaching well above the 135 degree threshhold (about 55 C). In fact, this heat generation was what led the Soviet Union to use polonium 210 as a heat source in the two Lunakhod lunar surveyors in the early 1970's. It was also used at the neutron trigger in several Soviet nuclear weapon designs of the 1970's.

Every nuclear power plant in the world produces a few grams of polonium 210 each year. One gram, if aerosolized, is more than enough to kill the population of any major city. It is found naturally in extremely small percentages with uranium, and is also produced in extremely small amounts in the decay of barium.

We have enough trouble getting proper security and monitoring of the old Soviet stockpiles of uranium and plutonium. There is no, absolutely none, zero, zip, zilch, nada monitoring or control in Russia for the lesser known nuclear materials like Polonium 210. Want to be afraid? There's one to keep you awake at night.

[Adrian II]

There is no, absolutely none, zero, zip, zilch, nada monitoring or control in Russia for the lesser known nuclear materials like Polonium 210.

The Telegraph writes today that 'scientists at the Atomic Weapons Establishment at Aldermaston are believed to have already identified the nuclear plant which made the polonium.'

And there seems to have been another new development yesterday. The Guardian writes about letters warning of 'rogue elements' in Russia:

Detectives investigating the death of the 43-year-old, who died last Thursday, are investigating letters smuggled out of Russia. The letters purportedly show the existence of a secret squad set up to target him and others, it was claimed today.

Scotland Yard has been passed copies of two letters apparently written in jail by the former Russian intelligence officer Mikhail Trepashkin. In one, Mr Litvinenko is warned that he and his family are at risk. Mr Litvinenko's London friend Alex Goldfarb said scans of the letters came into his possession yesterday, and he passed them to Scotland Yard.

Mr Trepashkin - who worked for the KGB's successor, the FSB, until 1997 - was tried in 2004 on accusations of being a British spy and passing secret information to Mr Litvinenko and his close friend Boris Berezovsky, the tycoon in exile in the capital.

However, British intelligence sources increasingly suspect that the former spy, killed by polonium 210, was the victim of a plot involving "rogue elements" within the Russian state, it was reported today.

While ruling out any official involvement by Vladimir Putin's government, investigators believe only those with access to state nuclear laboratories could have mounted such a sophisticated plot.

[Vladimir]

http://cicentre.com/Documents/litvinenko.html



These people are a really good source for spy intrigue stuff. They're also doggedly updating this story.

Edit: I know they can trace plutonium to countries and reactors; it would be nice if they could do the same here.

[Aenlic]

According to CNN, the Italian, Scaramella, who met with Litivenko in the restaraunt in London has tested positive for polonium now too, and according to him, he didn't eat anything there, like Litivenko did. So the food at the restaraunt wasn't the source. CNN is also reporting that Litivenko's wife has tested positive as well. She wasn't at of Litivenko's meetings that day. What this suggests to me is that the source was airborne and inhaled by Litivenko and then transferred from Litivenko to his wife and Scaramella via Litivenko's own exhalations. Yes, polonium really is that deadly. We'll know more when they complete the autopsy. If it really was in Litivenko's lungs, and in sufficient amount to self heat, then it could have vaporized and been exhaled easily by Litivenko.

[CrossLOPER]

[url]Edit: I know they can trace plutonium to countries and reactors;

You can process polonium in your own home with little detection.