Russia's new approach to dealing with "extremists"

[CrossLOPER]

Stuff

I did not just ask you to dance off.

The parallels that our entire discussion has to "evil US in Iraq" is amazing. Seeing as that I deplore such tired discussions, I am seriously considering disengaging from this thread because, well, I'm tired of it. For now, I will add bits here and there, but I will try not get too involved. Before I do that, I need to address one or two more things...

Oh, that's generous of you. So if she had published what you term as propaganda, she would deserve to die? Isn't that what Putin's new law says too? In the civilised world, you will find that journalists are allowed to challenge the government and their line - it's called freedom of the press.

Hmm, I suppose you want me to say:

Free.....dumb? MAAA! Me smash me smash me SMASH!!! Free-dumb bad! GRAAA!

Seriously, wth? I can't imagine what you think I look like.

I imagine you intend to return and live in Putin's Paradise one day?

When time permits, sure. My family lives there.

I hope you have managed to escape the hell of conscription

I'm getting a high education at home and abroad. Not really an escape as escape is not my aim.

I need a break. Have a nice day everyone.

EDIT: I have engaged in that which I hate, namely quote function abuse. Punishment has been undecided.

[Vladimir]

Sooo, when are we going to get back to dead ruskie spys?

[Aenlic]

The Russian Foreign Minister is warning the Brits today to avoid "politicization" of the matter or it might harm UK-Russian relations.

Oh, Really? If there was official involvement, then they didn't seem to be overly concerned about UK-Russian relations when assassinating a British citizen - Litvinenko - and doing it on UK soil.

[Vladimir]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../npoison01.xml

• The assassins were so bungling that they dropped the polonium on the floor of a London hotel room, a senior government source told The Daily Telegraph yesterday.

Good to know that someone else considers them amateurs.

HTTP://WWW.FOXNEWS.COM/STORY/0,2933,234017,00.HTML

PUTIN ANGRY WITH BRITAIN FOR NOT QUIETING EX-RUSSIAN SPY ON DEATHBED

How dare he speak out against the great leader!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...6268_2,00.html

Litvinenko's father, Walter, said in an interview published today that his son - who was born an Orthodox Christian but had close links to Islamist rebels in Chechnya - had requested to be buried according to Muslim tradition after converting to Islam on his deathbed.
"He said ’I want to be buried according to Muslim tradition’," Mr Litvinenko told Moscow's Kommersant daily.

Definitely adds an interesting twist.

[CrossLOPER]

Too lazy to translate myself, but this should do:

"During November 1998 Litvinenko and several former colleagues of special services stated at the press conference that they were participants in the plot FSB against Boris berezovskiy and it had to kill owner. During November 2000 Litvinenko illegally it moved into London, while during May 2001 was obtained in Great Britain political refuge. In 2003 Litvinenko it came out by the co-author of the book "FSB it explodes Russia", with which Russian special services were charged with the explosions of apartment houses in Moscow in the fall of 1999."(Lenta.ru)

Berezovskiy is one of those men that don't like being threatened.

[Watchman]

And IIRC on bad terms with the Kremlin too.

...maybe it's just me, but until some good evidence turns up insinuations that blatantly seek to pin the blame on him are going to look awfully suspect.

[CrossLOPER]

...

...What?

[Watchman]

"Two birds with one stone" say anything ?

[CrossLOPER]

"Two birds with one stone" say anything ?

More sex? No.

Possible. Out of the long list of other possibilities it is possible.

[Watchman]

Oh, many things are possible - Peace In Our Time, the Second Coming, lead turning into gold.
Even remotely likely is a little different issue, and the list of those things is rather shorter.

[cegorach]

Suprised ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6219124.stm

I am not...

[Aenlic]

Several employees of the Millenium hotel have tested positive for non-lethal (supposedly) exposure to polonium-210. This pretty much narrows down the location of the event to that hotel. It was here that Litvinenko met with the ex-agents, Kovtun and Lugovoi. It now appears that Kovtun was exposed and is possibly ill from the same source. So, that leaves several questions:

Were Kovtun and Lugovoi the assassins? If not were they targets or merely exposed unintentionally or perhaps set up to look like the assassins?

[cegorach]

I think the weapon of choice in this case makes it even more probable it was the Russian FSB - it is known for using extensive force e.g. force Nord-Ost affair and poisonous gas, Beslan school and flamethrowers (!! ) and so on.


Also as I thought

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6162033.stm

There is too obvious connection to the assassination case - the reprisal action to make the UK the 'hostile' side - again usual case we have similar ways to deal with polish, lithuanian, estonian, latvian, georgian, ukrainian and moldovian 'hostile attitudes'...

[CrossLOPER]

extensive force e.g. force Nord-Ost affair and poisonous gas, Beslan school and flamethrowers (!! ) and so on.

Personally, I found the methods they used to be... I don't know... successful in those cases.

[Vladimir]

Personally, I found the methods they used to be... I don't know... successful in those cases.

Interesting. I guess it depends on how you define "success" and acceptable levels of "collateral damage."

[Pannonian]

Interesting. I guess it depends on how you define "success" and acceptable levels of "collateral damage."

We should extort as much as we can out of Russia out of this affair, in exchange for not making the findings public. Using radioactive substances to assassinate someone is not acceptable - it contaminates bystanders and pollutes an area for goodness knows how long. OTOH, this may have given us practice for if a terrorist sets off a dirty bomb.

Crossloper and other Russian posters - what's your opinion on this? Should the UK government demand the heads of the culprits, or should we do a deal and save the Russian government face?

[CrossLOPER]

Interesting. I guess it depends on how you define "success"....

How would you have dealt with the situations?

Hint:"Tear gas" is a wrong answer.

what's your opinion on this?

The UK should deport the wanted men that they are harboring and never harbor such people again. Doing so upsets relations much more than incidents like this.

[Tribesman]

The UK should deport the wanted men that they are harboring and never harbor such people again. Doing so upsets relations much more than incidents like this.

Giving political assylum to people worried about a dangerous fruitcake like Putin does more harm to relations than having radioactive crap spread around a nations capital city ????????????
Are you from this world ?

[Watchman]

"President Putin expresses his grievances over the murder of Politikovska and promises to do his best to put an end to the kind of journalism that motivates such crimes."
- the "sarcastic observations" column in a local newspaper a while back

Hint:"Tear gas" is a wrong answer.

And thermobaric munitions as in Beslan is ?

[CrossLOPER]

dangerous fruitcake like Putin

The poisonings have not been linked to anyone. Please hold on to that until something tangible comes up. Also, I was referring to the "OMG itz teh Russianz!!!" thing that seems to pop up every once in a while that we have all grown used to.

Berezovsky is a murderer and a thief who stole billions from the Russian government. Zakayev is a terrorist who helped plot terrorist attacks. It's like Russia harboring UBL (assuming that the honey maker actually did the deeds). Quit making these people look like innocents. They are concerned about Putin only because he wants them taken in for their crimes. Personally, I would be too.

I have yet to hear your plan, commander....

[Pannonian]

The UK should deport the wanted men that they are harboring and never harbor such people again. Doing so upsets relations much more than incidents like this.

Harbouring political refugees is more upsetting than contaminating our sovereign territory with radioactive substances and injuring innocent bystanders (the bar staff and goodness who else were also affected)? If you want these people deported, gather the evidence and present the case to our government.

[Banquo's Ghost]

If you want these people deported, gather the evidence and present the case to our government.

More importantly, get a fair and non-corrupt legal system.

The UK won't extradite those people because it is impossible for them to get a fair trial.

Good on the UK.

[CrossLOPER]

Pannonian, read my post above yours. Proof should lie well in documents that show Berezovsky requesting money for state projects and never executing them. Zakayev was was frequently speaking on par with head Chechen rebels and himself lead several assaults. He then moved on to support Maskhadov, who was sympathetic towards terrorist groups. This is all well known.

Banquo's Ghost, the UK is still harboring dangerous individuals who must be tried. This fact unfortunately remains.

This is why Russia is unwilling to extradite Russian citizens to the UK; it is believed that the UK will just take harbor them too. It is difficult for me to understand why the UK would protect someone who went about throwing radioactive substances over half of Europe, but you understand the concern is based from previous experiences.

Your comment on Russian courts is an excuse. I doubt that the UK would feel the same sentiment if Russia began hoarding people who where accused of terrorism in Britain.

[Tribesman]

This is why Russia is unwilling to extradite Russian citizens to the UK; it is believed that the UK will just take harbor them too.

Yes looper Britain would go to all the effort of extraditing criminals that it wanted to put before the courts on charges it would have laid out in exrtradition hearings so that it can harbour them instead Moonbats

[Banquo's Ghost]

Banquo's Ghost, the UK is still harboring dangerous individuals who must be tried. This fact unfortunately remains.

This is why Russia is unwilling to extradite Russian citizens to the UK; it is believed that the UK will just take harbor them too. It is difficult for me to understand why the UK would protect someone who went about throwing radioactive substances over half of Europe, but you understand the concern is based from previous experiences.

Your comment on Russian courts is an excuse. I doubt that the UK would feel the same sentiment if Russia began hoarding people who where accused of terrorism in Britain.

The UK is unwilling to extradite accused individuals (they have not been convicted yet, remember - unless, like Mr Putin, you consider the trial a mere formality) because its independent judiciary (novel concept, I know, but bear with me) has decided that they cannot get a fair trial in Russia.

This is not an excuse. It is a legal duty under the Human Rights Act incorporated into British law. Even if their politicians wanted to do what President Putin requested, they cannot over-ride the judiciary.

The UK has had cause to be upset in the past over, for example, Irish terror suspects "harboured" in the USA. At the time, the US judiciary felt that they would not be guaranteed a fair trial, and consequently, the British government had to whistle Dixie.

The situation is little different from Soviet times, when the west was often accused of harbouring "evil" people. When Russia sorts out her judiciary to be properly independent of the politicians (and I have never met a Russian who doesn't think the courts are rife with corruption - perhaps you're the first?) she might find other countries more sympathetic to extradition.

[Pannonian]

Pannonian, read my post above yours. Proof should lie well in documents that show Berezovsky requesting money for state projects and never executing them. Zakayev was was frequently speaking on par with head Chechen rebels and himself lead several assaults. He then moved on to support Maskhadov, who was sympathetic towards terrorist groups. This is all well known.

Have you gone through the official channels? Any country, even the US, who wants the UK to extradite its inhabitants will have to go through a process of applying for their extradition. Has Russia done so?

Banquo's Ghost, the UK is still harboring dangerous individuals who must be tried. This fact unfortunately remains.

This is why Russia is unwilling to extradite Russian citizens to the UK; it is believed that the UK will just take harbor them too. It is difficult for me to understand why the UK would protect someone who went about throwing radioactive substances over half of Europe, but you understand the concern is based from previous experiences.

Your comment on Russian courts is an excuse. I doubt that the UK would feel the same sentiment if Russia began hoarding people who where accused of terrorism in Britain.

We tolerated the Americans doing so for many years. Why wouldn't we tolerate the Russians doing the same? In any case, we would apply to their government for their extradition, not unilaterally poison them and every man-Jack who happened to be nearby at the time. That's what annoys me - not the assassination, but the method which was ridiculously unclean and affected innocent bystanders who had nothing to do with the offence. Do you agree with the method of assassination used?

[cegorach]

[QUOTE=CrossLOPER]

Pannonian, read my post above yours. Proof should lie well in documents that show Berezovsky requesting money for state projects and never executing them. Zakayev was was frequently speaking on par with head Chechen rebels and himself lead several assaults. He then moved on to support Maskhadov, who was sympathetic towards terrorist groups. This is all well known.

hrowing Maskhadov with Zakayev to the same basket with Basayev and his terrorist is an excuse actually.
Since the Russian president branded all non-collaborators as terrorists and bandits the term is of no consequence anymore when used by the Russian authorities or massmedia.
One thing is guerilla war and the real war and another is a terrorist attack. There might be links between the Chechen government ( Maskhadov was legally elected unlike the Russian puppets after all) and the terrorists, but that is neither proven nor even really suggested by the non-Russian sources.

There are none known Chechen terrorists in the UK.

Besides since the UK has signed certain HR agreements it cannot sent the people the Russian persecution demands - the fear of unfair judgement is FULLY justified, as well as of the torture and other 'extra-ordinary' methods 'helpful' in geting confession from a suspect.

Your comment on Russian courts is an excuse. I doubt that the UK would feel the same sentiment if Russia began hoarding people who where accused of terrorism in Britain.

If you prove that UK courts do not guarantee fair judgement of course + give more reasons to send the people to Russia than some propaganda stuff.







ACTUALLY the term collateral damage doesn't really exist when Russian government deals with their 'enemies' - true or real.

Despite numerous actions of some very brave people such like those from 'Memorial' organisation the XVIth century rule 'we have many people' still exists.
There is NO question about the number of the people who can be sacrificed - never really was.
The TARGET is all what really means - so if it is eleminated a victory is always achieved. If 10 times more of the civilians dies that is nothing more than unfortunate, 'a tragedy' - noone is blamed, noone responsible except the target, the villians themselves. Even the most extreme incompetence is tolerated.
The dark picture is sad, but so real and every time I talk to the Russians I feel the distance between Russian and Europe widens.
Human Rights are only a fashionable slogan to the Russian leadership - just like wearing expensive suits and buing expensive cars to the Russian elite is.

The state MUST be strong, if it cannot ( as now) it must LOOK as if it is so we can expect more similar moves warranted or without a warrant - overzealous agents will always appear - some hidden faction struggle only makes it more probable.
So the majority of the people is happy because the leadership, the Tzar is sooo powerful, sooo large, and its leadership sooo bold and brave against the 'evil' states of Europe, only if directly it watches their relatives poisoned and tossed as a piece of rag on the ground the people see the real power and low value of the life...

Prsonally I am fed up with that, especially if the sacrifice is made to do... what actually ? The illusion of the empire ? Or something worse which will end as before in a big implosion after dozens million of people will lose their life... again.

[TosaInu]

Sorry for the interruption,

I'm patrolling this forum every now and then, true I don't like it. This is a sensitive topic and I read it starting at page 1. While there is, and I can really not be surprised about that, some friction, I must admit that it's still 'clean'.

Thanks.

[CrossLOPER]

Let's keep this as short as possible.

Tribesman: The UK is holding those suspects. Russia wants them. UK says no. Suspects stay. Story over(?).

EDIT: I have addressed this more in depth below.

BG: I respect extradition laws, although I believe that there should be more exceptions. Personally I think you should keep him. I also think that once someone is in asylum, they should consider themselves lucky and shut up.

I agree that the courts in Russia are corrupt much like they are in many other countries, but I question the practice of some countries assuming the moral authority to take in suspected terrorists and say "You need to be this good to try this evil."

Pannonian: I am cringing and laughing a bit at all sides and factions here, but saying "Everyone here sucks." does not provide for a good argument, does it?

About the method of assassination, who said I approve of it? It's so messy and apparently poorly thought out that it almost seems like the persons involved were trying to do a poor job... or perhaps they did a very good job in relation to their goal. Regardless, I do not approve of the method and I question the necessity of the assassination.

Who are you blaming?

cegorach: ...

The state MUST be powerful, else it disintegrates into some garbage. I do not think that the government should be ripped to bits every time someone is displeased.

The Chechen War is a domestic matter which has the goal of securing the state, land, and the oil which belongs to the country. A province like Chechnya cannot be allowed to be semi-autonomous by its own.

"There are none known Chechen terrorists in the UK." is an opinion. The line between rebel and terrorist is very thin, if this is what you are trying to get at.

You are upset because there is strife. That is understandable, but it is the unfortunate side-effect when people want power. I am not in a position to say "let's all deal with it", so I will not ask anyone to do so. I am also not in a position to change that fact. However, I must remind you that Russia is not the most awful place in the world and that you are exaggerating the situation to a small extent. I believe that Russia recovering nicely considering the situation nearly two decades ago.

As for the "non-Russian media", I should remind you that the news does not always deliver everything and is not always accurate. Russian media, of course, is in no way exempt from this fact.

Again, I question the practice of governments assuming moral authority over other governments.

EDIT:

TosaInu: Good of you to give me a chance to point this out.

Everyone: The emotional appeals seem a bit misplaced, at least for the moment. I don't really want this thread to be prematurely taken over by the Army of the Dancing Clock and the Legion of the Camel, so can we all agree to pull back a bit?

[Watchman]

The Chechen War is a domestic matter which has the goal of securing the state, land, and the oil which belongs to the country. A province like Chechnya cannot be allowed to be semi-autonomous by its own.

Oh ? ...why not ? Historical precedence on the whole suggests that reagions that really want to go off on their own should let allowed to; trying to hang onto them by force only results in ugly bloody messes, and I don't really think anyone other than a serious empire aficiando can argue that's a better outcome.