Defeated Romans in other armies?

[pezhetairoi]

Parthia, i think. I remember after Valerian lost his army in Persia (Was it Valerian?) some years later Chinese records report fighting strange white barbarians at a fortress in the Tarim whose armour was described as Roman... o_O But that's not confirmed.

[Sarcasm]

I believe there are examples of Iberian cities being asked to turn in Roman deserters as part of the conditions of surrender. Presumably they would fight too, since there's also some records of these guys leading peninsular warbands. However I don't think they'd be forming entire units of infantry, IMO they'd basically fight among the heavier ranks of iberian infantry.

[Zaknafien]

there is no proof that the Romans ever set foot in Gansu before the Christian era, there are reports that have revived discussion over whether a group of Romans offered their services to the Hun warlord Jzh Jzh in 36 B.C.

This idea was first proposed by Homer Hasenphlug Dubs, an Oxford University professor of Chinese history, who speculated in 1955 that some of the 10,000 Roman prisoners taken by the Parthians after the battle of Carrhae in southeastern Turkey in 53 B.C. made their way east to Uzbekistan to enlist with Jzh Jzh against the Han. Chinese accounts of the battle, in which Jzh Jzh was decapitated and his army defeated, note unusual military formations and the use of wooden fortifications foreign to the nomadic Huns. Dubs postulated that after the battle the Chinese employed the Roman mercenaries as border guards, settling them in Liqian, a short form of Alexandria used by the Chinese to denote Rome. While some Chinese scholars have been critical of Dubs' hypothesis, others went so far as to identify Lou Zhuangzi as the probable location of Liqian in the late 1980s.

So, the question remains, but its plausible, at least.

[CaesarAugustus]

there is no proof that the Romans ever set foot in Gansu before the Christian era, there are reports that have revived discussion over whether a group of Romans offered their services to the Hun warlord Jzh Jzh in 36 B.C.

This idea was first proposed by Homer Hasenphlug Dubs, an Oxford University professor of Chinese history, who speculated in 1955 that some of the 10,000 Roman prisoners taken by the Parthians after the battle of Carrhae in southeastern Turkey in 53 B.C. made their way east to Uzbekistan to enlist with Jzh Jzh against the Han. Chinese accounts of the battle, in which Jzh Jzh was decapitated and his army defeated, note unusual military formations and the use of wooden fortifications foreign to the nomadic Huns. Dubs postulated that after the battle the Chinese employed the Roman mercenaries as border guards, settling them in Liqian, a short form of Alexandria used by the Chinese to denote Rome. While some Chinese scholars have been critical of Dubs' hypothesis, others went so far as to identify Lou Zhuangzi as the probable location of Liqian in the late 1980s.

So, the question remains, but its plausible, at least.

Wow, that is fascinating Zaknafien. I've read something similar, but I wasn't sure to believe it because it was an online source.

In EB terms, would these Roman deserters/mercenaries be made into mercenary units that you could hire in specific territories? If not v 0.8/1.0, maybe EB2?

[Zaknafien]

Paullus, at the time of the Mithridatic wars, most of the Roman settlers in Pergammon were merchants and private tax collectors--publicani. There were no garrisions although each tax-lord surely had his own bodyguard and private forces. Lets not forget that Mithridates incited the locals to murder every Roman citizen in their territory..

[VandalCarthage]

A deserter Roman unit you could get after a certain percentage of major battles would be cool. It'd probably have to be limited to certain factions. Also, are we sure the deserters are Romans, and not allies?

Perhaps make some sort of Roman unit recruitable as mercenaries in certain regions outside of Italy where a defeated Roman force might not have as many options.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

It's a very difficult question for us to try and solve indeed. It seems like we would have to speculate here for the first time if we made a unit. But it seems like that sort of thing really would be necessary, since there's nothing else in central italy if you put a type4 in. Something (unit) a little better and only available in a type3 or 4 would be supersweet though. Pretty much any faction would have access to it though. This is all talking out my ass though - I dunno if there is much desire for such a thing in the team. I just hate conquering italy because I know I get none of my own troops and none of theirs. Blech. Not realistic.

[CountArach]

IMO, the only thing that I would consider likely to fight for any outside invader would be the allied companies, for example Hannibal had several armies conprised of these Southern Italians/Greeks when he was late in his campaign. They never performed too well, in fact they were downright poor, and were no where near his own Veterans, but the point remains that these conquered people would probably fight for outsiders. I don't think that many Romans owuld go to the other side in large numbers.

[abou]

Goldsworthy makes mention of Roman deserters in his book The Fall of Carthage. I cannot remember if he mentioned them fighting for the Carthaginians, but the return of deserters was an important part of the treaties for the 1st and 2nd war. When I get the chance I can read those chapters again, but I am pretty sure that during the 1st war there were Roman deserters fighting in Sicily for Carthage. Whether that was forced...

[HamilcarBarca]

Roman Deserters

This is an interesting topic. Roman deserters featured in the Punic Wars on a number of occasions. Those that spring to mind are;

1. During Hannibal's campaign in Italy he attempted to seize a city by deceit, approaching the city in column, with his deserters in the van, pretending to be a force of Romans. The ploy failed, the gates were shut behind the deserters, and they were slain.
2. During the siege of Syracuse, the most determined ppart of the garrison were the Roman deserters. It seems a significant number of them had fled Italy (or were Cannae veterans who had gone AWOL after being sent to Sicily) and entered the service of the Syracusans. When Syracuse became an ally of Carthage in around 215 BC, these troops did too. These deserters refused to surrender to Marcellus, even when the defence of Syracuse was hopeless, and fought to the bitter end.
3. In the Third Punic War the last group of defenders with Hasdrubal on the Byrsa citadel were Roman deserters. They knew they couldn't surrender.
4. Rome always stipulated that deserters had to be returned in its peace treaties. I think Hamilcar Barca in 241 BC may have succeeded in avoiding this obligation, and bringing the Roman deserters that served with him back to Carthage. I will have to check this.
5. After Hannibal entered the Po Valley, in 217 BC, a Roman commander betrayed a key installation to him in exchange for a fat bribe.

Roman deserters were obviously welcomed into Carthaginian service. There must have been enough of them to enable Hannibal and other commanders to form whole units of them. They obviously had a high morale - they could never risk capture! Why did they desert? Unhappy or abused conscripts? Soldiers who felt they had been harshly punished by the Republic following battlefield defeats? Ex-prisoners and slaves? Italics forced to serve in Roman armies who deserted because they hated Rome? Adventurers and men whose loyalty was bought. Probably all these.

The opportunity to build a unit of deserters would be cool. Maybe a random script that might see one simply arrive at a held city following a heroic victory?

H.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Ok, then how did they fight? Equipped and in the style of hoplites or some other style? Or were any roman techniques, equipment still used? If we don't know for sure, what are good guesses (speculation, I know, but it's a very good argument for recruitment in Italy being somewhat special for other factions besides Romans). Fun discussion here what.

[abou]

They would probably fight with whatever equipment they had when they deserted. If that is not the case, I think it is possible that their services would be valued enough to have access to good equipment. Maybe mercenary Princepes?

[oudysseos]

I don't have a source in front of me, but was it not a Roman soldier who killed Pompey as he landed in Egypt? I don't think that that was an example of desertion, but rather of a neglected local garrison, cut off from central control during the civil war, and coming under the sway of local potentates. Roman soldiers and magistrates could certainly be bribed for specific purposes if not induced to desert wholesale.

Another example is Quintus Sertorius in Spain. This is an example of a proto-civil war, really, except that Sertorius' power base in Spain were tribes like the Lusitanians who had had enough of being fleeced by Rome. To the 'Real Romans' he was nothing more than a deserter and rebel, and he was joined by other deserters and rebels in his fight against Sulla and Pompey.

But if you're looking for examples of Roman mercenary cohorts fighting for, say, Pontus, then I am not aware of any.

[paullus]

A better way to figure this out would be for someone to look closely at the Mithridatic wars and see if any of the Roman/Latin settlers were recruited into the Pontic armies.

Romans fought as mercenaries in many armies all over the world, but rarely--if ever, perhaps--as units of Romans (probably within units of heavy infantry, as Sarcasm suggested). A deserter Roman unit you could get after a certain percentage of major battles would be cool. It'd probably have to be limited to certain factions. Also, are we sure the deserters are Romans, and not allies?

[Sarkiss]

Parthia, i think. I remember after Valerian lost his army in Persia (Was it Valerian?) some years later Chinese records report fighting strange white barbarians at a fortress in the Tarim whose armour was described as Roman... o_O But that's not confirmed.

yep, not confirmed, IIRC just an assumption. it presumably were Crassus legions' survivors. after Carrhae. dont remember the details, i read the article a while ago.

[Zaknafien]

Quintus Sertorius defected to the Lusitanians with an army of around 3,000 Roman soldiers, but this was during the period of Sulla's civil war.. then again there's Horatius on the bridge as an example of Roman character, although its likley propaganda. Its a difficult issue to decide.

[Ludens]

Quintus Sertorius defected to the Lusitanians with an army of around 3,000 Roman soldiers, but this was during the period of Sulla's civil war..

Not exactly. Sertorius and his Senate-in-exile did fight with the Iberians against the Sullan regime in Rome, but it was Sertorius who was in charge, and not the Iberians.

[Zaknafien]

Right---what I mean was he fought against the "government" in Rome. Albeit an illegal government you could say.