Hardest Faction

[Reapz]

Now that people have had the game for a little while I would interested to hear which AI faction they believe to be the hardest to achieve a win in a full campaign on vh/vh?

I have completed campaigns with Scotland and Russia and currently am finishing off as Denmark. I don't want to suggest by this post that I think the game is easy. I have had to do a lot of thinking in my campaigns and have been so absorbed I played until ungodly hours of the night, then dreamed of strategic solutions to my campaign problems. Kudos to the developers. I think this is the best Total War game yet and I am well satisfied with the way I spent my $50.

I have found Russia to be the hardest so far. I was cash poor until the end and the empire is geographically enormous which makes for difficulties fighting on more than one front. But the power of their missile cavalry and their ability to move quickly over the long distances in that part of the map really helped.

Scotland I found fairly straightforward. I captured the Rebel provinces quickly, then England, France, Denmark etc. The AI didn't do much to attack the British Isles and let me build up high end units and a good economy. Russia on the other hand the AI never left alone.

Denmark I think has strong infantry units and basically I am attacking my neighbors with good effect. It is a familiar area of the map however after playing the other two above-named factions and I feel like a change in geography.

So now I am looking for a new challenge so please post your suggestions?

[Doug-Thompson]

I haven't played Poland, but it appears to be in a very tough map position. It borders the Danes, the HRE, Hungary and Russia.

[Quillan]

I've never played either, but I'd think either the Holy Roman Empire or Russia. HRE suffers from being surrounded and inland. You'll almost certainly be at war with all of your neighbors at times, and frequently at the same time. Couple that with potential lack of sea trade and the economy suffers. Russia has a weak starting position, vast stretches of territory that must be covered by armies and patrolled to put down rebels/heretics, poor economy, and the possibility of the Mongols, Timurids, or both putting in an appearance.

[Reapz]

Does HRE get favorable treatment by the Pope? Less chance of excommunication etc?

[Basileus]

Ive played 8 factions so far and the most difficult and most fun is The Turks, its easy at the start if you play them right but so far ive had both the Mongols and the Timurids as well as the Egyptians come after me and that is hard, having both Hordes coming after you aint easy heh.

[Katana]

I don't think that would make much historical sense. I believe the Emporer and Pope began feuding almost immediatley after the Emporer was first crowned. And then there's the whole investiture controversy thingy, involving Pope Gregory VII and Emporer Henry IV. Funny stuff, that.

[Wizzie]

It's the complete opposite actually. The HRE is currenty huffing with the Papacy because around the time of game start (1080) the Vatican retracted the Holy Roman Emperor's power to appoint the new Pope and created the College of Cardinals to do it instead. So they're currently not on speaking terms, and the HRE starts off with the least crosses on the pope-o-meter.

[lalartu]

I agree with Russia being the hardest, especially if you're doing the long campaign since you'll be facing both mongols and timurids
scotland i found to be too easy. england is dumb enough to actually not take any of the rebel settling until later on and by then i'm sieging london and northtumbria
danemark is probably the easiest faction yet. great units and nobobody tries to claim your scandinavian lands.

as for what's hard I think turkey has a challenge in the beginning and later in the game, but the mid part is quite easy
you get to face timurids and mongols, even though your units are slightly better than Russians, but you definitely don't get enough funding
janissaries and best muskets in the game also make it a bit easier when fighting other factions

HRE is in disadvantage through the entire campaign, so they're quite difficult as well. you don't have professional armies either and you're literally surrounded by enemies.
poland is usually the most trouble for HRE, but everyone, including venice and milan want a piece of you, especially if you happen to have bad relationships with the pope.
being on a good side of a catholic church was the only way I could sort of kick ass

finally portugal i think faces some difficulties during the entire campaign. you really have to take care of spain fast or they'll crush you like a bug. they have better units (apart from having same units as you) and are richer than you. but it's only one real enemy because moors don't usually cause much fuss

also i've noticed in every campaign i play portugal is the first to go all the time, so I'd say try Portugal on VH VH for a nice challenge
if you feel like they're pushing you off the continent, hold on till you can swim away to the carribean:) you have like the most direct route there from your lands

[Darkmoor_Dragon]

Venice is fun, especially in a long game (turn = 0.75 or similar).

Milan, Hungary, Sicily, HRE and Byzies were all at war with me from about year 3.... If i hadnt managed to get on the right side of the pope RIGHT at the start (vh/vh) I'dve been toast.... only some highly strategic Crusading saved me.

High dependence on towns and militia made it entirely different to England and clones.

England is by far the easiest due to the security of the UK and the inevitable *sit behind stakes and pummel the enemy with longbows* tactics. Maybe when the passive AI is done for this might change.

England should be MUCH harder than it is, and the French more aggressive.
I find the Danes become dominant in almost every game in the far north europe. HRE gets creamed every time (so far).

In the longer games those factions with the better late period units struggle more at the beginning as you can find yourself at 1150 or so with many of the buildings max'd for the time and then a long wait using those units until gunpowder arrives.

Which can be very good fun - you certainly get far more respect for castles when you know the best weapon you will get for another 200 odd turns is still the trebuchet and getting those to work against a level 1 upgraded castle isnt easy.

Edit - i've tried playing at 1.0 but its too quick, 0.5 is a bit slow, so plumped for 0.75 atm which seems good so far... cant remember the number of turns offhand and dont even think about age-per-turn.

[Darth Nihilus]

I saw a poll on this at the Total War center and out of like 140 or so votes, the HRE was voted hardest by like 100 of those. I haven't played them yet, but if its anything like the original, I'm sure they're the hardest by far.

[Darth Nihilus]

By the way, you should make this into a poll.

[lars573]

I'd say the ERE or the Turks. Their position makes them prime targets for everyone. Plus they are both directly in the cross hairs of the Mongols and Timurids.

[TheFluff]

im playing the HRE and so far so good. It really depends on who attacks you, and WHEN. One gripe is there special units dont come untill its at a point where you dont need them, there for even though they are supurior to other late infantry.

I still think the hardest faction would be egypt or turkey. They go through alot and havent many late unit options.

[Somebody Else]

Played England VH/VH. Walk in the park.

Currently playing HRE VH/VH. It's tricky, but I'm getting there - usually have at least one city under siege every turn, am at war with France, Sicily, Venice, Poland, Russia, Hungary, Egypt (crusaded to Jerusalem...) And I've been excommunicated. My battles are largely being fought with low level militia units.

In short, HRE as hardest +1 vote.

[EnemyOfTheState]

I've found that the HRE and Turkey are two of the hardest factions to play as.

If you're the HRE you can end up at war with France, Milan, Venice, Poland, Hungray, Denmark at once this is a horrid experence if you're not the pope's little buddy. They also have to fight many different types of armies ranging from meele cav armies, the italian armies, archer cav armies, and infantry strong armies.

I kinda like Turkey's position at the start of the game, in a corner with only Byz, Egypt, and Russia to fight. This becomes a problem when the hordes come...

[Beren Son Of Barahi]

HRE is up there, but hungry dosn't have much going for it, its got russia and poland plus ities and the rest below.... id say Portugal is in a bit of a sticky situation as well.

[KARTLOS]

turkey and poland have been mentioned but neither are particularly hard.

poland have prbably the best pound for pound unit in the game with their nobles.

with the turks their early game is quite challenging, where you will be fighting the egyptians and byzantines. if you take them out earlly on then you are sitting in a fairly nice position. their horse archers are excellent against european armies. yes there are the mongols, but you should have a long time to prepare for them and at any rate can complete before they arrive.

i havent played as the hre yet but i am guessing they are the hardest, at the very least they always seem to do the worst when the ai is control of them, wheras with other factions there is some variation in which come out on top.

milans options for expansion seem limited earlly on as well so i imagine they are reasonably hard.

[andrewt]

Without modding, the Mongols arrive by around turn 67. I'd say that's pretty early. You'll be lacking a lot of the good Turkish units by then.

I think anything in the east is pretty hard because of the Mongols. They arrive midway through your teching up to get the units that can really stand toe to toe with them.

Aside from that, HRE is the hardest because of how many nations surround them and how little coastline they have at the start. The only good noncoast province is Vienna, which is really good for a landlocked province. It's giving me 4k+ every turn, compared to Venice's 6k.

[Xaziv]

venice has good units but i have a hard time starting out w/ them.

I dont think there is a really "hard" faction... I guess maybe Russia but its still completely doable...
Russia starts out well... all those rebel factions make easy territories.

[IrishArmenian]

I'll bet the Portugese have a hard time. I am doing a Russia VH/VH and I can tell you, it is hard trying to manage such a large empire with so little money (Take Stockholm).
The Hungarians seem hard to play as and later on, the Byzantines will have a really rough time seeing as they get outclassed.

[popemobile]

What about Sicily?

Seems to me like Sicily is in the worst geographical position to conquer anything.

[troymclure]

I haven't played the HRE but my pick is for turks or poland. I've played russia and even though money is tight you still have an edge of the map to protect so aren't surrouned. Poland are :(. Turks have to deal with crusades/a tough spot and multiple invasions.

[IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer]

HRE, hands down. It shows in the fact that they are always the first faction out in any campaign.

You start out in woeful disfavor with the pope, you have a crappy economy, and are surrounded on all sides by much larger and richer opponents. Once someone attacks you, usually everyone else follows suit.

[Furious Mental]

The first time I played HRE I found them very hard. I didn't expand enough in the first twenty turns, taking only Metz, Hamburg and the city of Venice. Eventually I ended up bogged down in a war with everyone besides Hungary, the main issue being the constant attacks by Venice (the faction), Milan and Sicily on Bologna and the city of Venice. The second time I played HRE (on very hard/ very hard) they were actually easy because I had a clear plan of what to do in the first twenty turns- I expanded to grab Hamburg, Bern, Metz, Bruges, Antwerp, Prague, Stettin, and Magdeburg, I withdrew my garrison from Bologna, demolished the buildings, upped the taxes and let it fall to rebels (this was partly what allowed me to grab Bern), and converted Staufen to a city. The result was that I had income generating cities in Germany, Austria and the Low Countries, protected from my main enemies on the northern and southern frontiers by castles, and because I had gotten rid of Bologna all the Italian factions fought amongst themselves rather than fighting me. If I had wanted I could probably have grabbed Breslau and Dijon as well, and made more cash off Bologna by selling it. On paper the HRE's starting position is weak but the opportunities for expansion are considerable and with only your starting garrisons and some mailed knights and mercenary spearmen and crossbowmen you can very easily become the largest and richest faction, and once you asume that position my experience is that the AI factions will prefer to attack each other, unless you make yourself a pariah by attacking them first. If you bungle your way through an HRE campaign leaving it as a disjointed faction which is large but has obvious weaknesses then yes, all the AI factions will attack you and eventually your position will become intractable, but play the early game well and you can avoid that. If you don't play as HRE then obviously they will be the first faction down in the any campaign because the AI isn't smart enough to convert their weak position into one of strength.

[Kobal2fr]

In a long campaing, Egypt must be fairly hard too. They have lots and lots of crummy units, their best infantry are 2H axemen who will not try and hit horses (OK, that's a bug, but still ), and you'll have to fend with both lots of crusaders AND the Mongols/Timurid by the time you're done. And, you know, the über-Turks too. They are also completely inadequate in the gunpowder era, be it arty-wise or musket-wise...

Sure, they have on of the best starting positions and roll in the dough pretty early, but that only goes so far.

Poland is actually not that hard. If you manage to get a wall of castles to the West early on (Szekelzln (can't remember the name, that 0% christian castle next to Hamburg),Magdeburg, Vienna) and keep them properly garrisoned you'll be able to fend off anything thrown at you from your Christian side, meaning you only have to worry about your Russian front, and seaborne invasions into your city-heavy heartlands.
Plus of course, Poland has awesome units (mounted Polish nobles are just sick, dismounted ones are very solid spearmen very early, Lithuanian archers have stakes, good horse archers to give you the range the Lithuanians footmen don't have... all in all, a solid roster)

[Darth Nihilus]

I have played with about 6 different factions so far and some of them more than once. So I'll weigh in with my opinions. Sicily has a very, very easy start, and has an excellent position to expand anywhere in the Med. Milan is also somewhat easy because of the insane amounts of money they generate. I also think Milan has solid units too.

Denmark is pretty easy too, but you have to be careful where you expand to. I played some with Portugal and they were very easy in my campaign as well.

I'm currently playing as the Byzantines (for the 2nd time) and I have almost all of Asia Minor. The Byzantines are not easy at all. Thier units are ok, but they are between Islam and the crusading Catholics. Plus, everyone wants Constantinople. I'm sure there are harder factions, but this one isn't easy. They are definantly the hardest one I have played as so far.

[cambrax]

What about Sicily?

Seems to me like Sicily is in the worst geographical position to conquer anything.

I've had endless bother with Sicily on vh/vh. Just could not get started... wherever you try to expand to you get attacked by superior naval and land armies, inevitably all at once. Had the Byzantines, the Moors, the Venetians and the Germans all at war with me, and no navy to connect Tunisia, Albania, Corsica and Sardinia (the obvious starting provinces to take) to my main two provinces.

Had more luck with Milan (my current game) as the start is made easier by their good cashflow. Once you secure the Italian peninsula plus Venice you're up and running.

[Darth Nihilus]

What I did with Sicily (with success) was take Sardina and Corsica first. Next, take some, if not all of the Italian peninsula. By this time you should be making good money. After that, I built up some sizeable naval forces so I could transport my troops to North Africa. This next thing is somthing I do on all campaigns; go to the Moors and buy Timbuktu off of them, the gold and Ivory down there for merchants is insane. Merchants in Timbuktu can get you up to 3000 florins per turn. After that, I suppose its your choice.

[Furious Mental]

"They are also completely inadequate in the gunpowder era, be it arty-wise or musket-wise"

Don't Sudanese Gunners have an attack value two points higher than basic European Arquebusiers?

[Wallas]

I just started the HRE campaing on vh/vh. Doesn't seem to be much of a challenge to me.

I started the came by capturing all the rebel camps I could reach. The only one I could not get was Bern. Milan took it. I also send diplomats to all directions and made alliances, trade rights and traded maps. I added regular tribute to all deals so that the proposition was balanced. This gave me huge amounts of starting money.

Now I am on 20th turn. I haven't lost single town or castle and I am only at war with Venice. I have taken the city of venice and one other town from them. If I recall correctly I now have 16 regions.