So many accidental deaths...

[Ulstan]

Sounds like assassins are far too good then, aside from dealing with inquisitors. You shouldn't be able to just wipe out entire countries with a handful of assassins and no real chance for the enemy to respond.

I avoid relying on assassins, because the AI seems incapable of dealing with them well, and it makes things far too easy, because family members are far too easily assassinated.

[Kraxis]

Sounds like assassins are far too good then, aside from dealing with inquisitors. You shouldn't be able to just wipe out entire countries with a handful of assassins and no real chance for the enemy to respond.

I avoid relying on assassins, because the AI seems incapable of dealing with them well, and it makes things far too easy, because family members are far too easily assassinated.

Take note that it wasn't a handful of assassins, but rather a massive operation.

However, reloading doesn't seem to help you much.
I have tried reloading with herecy trials and a bit on my super-assassin. I had a cardinal with 48% chance of burning the heretic... He failed every single of my 12 attempts with reload. That just isn't right according to the percentage.
However, higher chances of success might help. So in essence saving can only help you avoid losing an agent (or ability), and help you secure the kill that you were meant to get anyway.

But it seems that if you do something else before attempting the 'kill' (be it trials, assassination, checking persons or cornering merchants, then the game could be cleaning the memory for a new calculation. But I'm not certain (didn't help my cardinal in the mentioned example).

[Oaty]

However, reloading doesn't seem to help you much.
I have tried reloading with herecy trials and a bit on my super-assassin. I had a cardinal with 48% chance of burning the heretic... He failed every single of my 12 attempts with reload. That just isn't right according to the percentage.

Well the original Programming for STW/MTW had the asassins chance already decided before you turn began the turn. So if an asassin failed he was going to fail no matter how many times you reloaded it, if he killed he'd, he was going to make that kill no matter how many times you reloaded it.

[Whacker]

However, reloading doesn't seem to help you much.
I have tried reloading with herecy trials and a bit on my super-assassin. I had a cardinal with 48% chance of burning the heretic... He failed every single of my 12 attempts with reload. That just isn't right according to the percentage.
However, higher chances of success might help. So in essence saving can only help you avoid losing an agent (or ability), and help you secure the kill that you were meant to get anyway.

But it seems that if you do something else before attempting the 'kill' (be it trials, assassination, checking persons or cornering merchants, then the game could be cleaning the memory for a new calculation. But I'm not certain (didn't help my cardinal in the mentioned example).

Welcome to my sad existence kraxter.

I'm probably going to get ganged up on here, but I see two problems with assassins, one is taste, the other is a bug.

In terms of taste, I think they're underpowered by a good margin, at least the low level ones are. Keep hearing about how godlike the 9-10 skill assassins are but I can't even get my morons above 5-6 in skill. Before anyone jumps on this, I know how assassins work, I know how to train em, been playing these games for years, yadda yadda thank you drive through.

In terms of bug, I am adamant about the chance of success (displayed as a percentage) not being remotely accurate. I've tested this extensively, the success rates (positives) for a given set in a test doesn't remotely reflect the chance to succeed. I had a 6 skill assassin have a 33% chance of success on a nameless captain, he only managed to kill the sot 4 times out of 50 using quicksave/quickload. You guys can do the math. I've done other tests that I've documented in other threads for those who care enough to go hunt them down.

[Lord Condormanius]

In terms of bug, I am adamant about the chance of success (displayed as a percentage) not being remotely accurate. I've tested this extensively, the success rates (positives) for a given set in a test doesn't remotely reflect the chance to succeed. I had a 6 skill assassin have a 33% chance of success on a nameless captain, he only managed to kill the sot 4 times out of 50 using quicksave/quickload.

I think that the success percentage in this game is based on more than just the assassin's skill. I have had a target with as high as 80% one turn and the next turn, after he has moved it wil be like 36% or something. I think his position on the map, what other units are around, etc., may have something to do with it.

Like I said before, they seem to be working fine for me.

[Whacker]

I think that the success percentage in this game is based on more than just the assassin's skill. I have had a target with as high as 80% one turn and the next turn, after he has moved it wil be like 36% or something. I think his position on the map, what other units are around, etc., may have something to do with it.

Like I said before, they seem to be working fine for me.

After doing some more searching and reading here and twcenter, I'm now inclined to believe that. Some others have reported enemy and friendly spys in proximity to the target affecting the outcomes. If this really *is* the case, then I'm halfway to retracting my "it's a bug" statement. The problem in my view is that we really need CA to tell us exactly how the math works that goes into calculating an attempt and whether or not it is successful. And for that matter, how a good deal of other things are calculated. (yeah yeah, I know about the intellectual property excuse, but I still don't buy it )

[Kekvit Irae]

In my personal experience, reloading works some of the time with me. I think the game gives you one last chance to succeed on a dice roll when you reload, but if you fail that, any further reloading will also fail. I've had my assassins, priests, and inquisitors all fail the first time sometimes, only to succeed on the first reload. If they didnt succeed at that point, then it wouldnt matter how many reloads you did.

And before you ask, I have the all-factions mod installed, which is why I have inquisitors (by playing the Papal States).

Personally, I find the best way to train up a young assassin is to train assassins in towns with Assassin Guilds and maxed out brothel/cafe buildings. Then go to a rebel settlement (or an enemy) and target only the religious structure. I found that churches and mosques have a MUCH higher percentage chance to sabotague than other structures. Continue destroying structures until you get to the point where everything is 80% or more, and then start targetting newbie priests/imams/diplomats/merchants. Eventually you'll get a maxed out assassin with penty of good traits and followers or relics (Exquisite Blade). At that point, start targetting your enemy's family members. If you are bold enough, go for the heir or faction leader.

[Zenicetus]

I have tried reloading with herecy trials and a bit on my super-assassin. I had a cardinal with 48% chance of burning the heretic... He failed every single of my 12 attempts with reload. That just isn't right according to the percentage.

From what I've seen so far, those percentages "to hit" don't work the way most people understand math. I've seen the same thing with princesses looking for a marriage with a foreign prince. If it's 46%, I can try/reload and try again, and I'll never succeed. It's the same with assassins... very different from RTW, where it was worth trying a kill with a 35% chance.

Either something is wacky in the game math, or else you really do need the screen to show a 50% or better chance, before you'll get a hit.

[Daveybaby]

I've become convinced there is something going on with reloading. Its either:

(a) a reload bug screwing up assassins stats / chance to succeed in a similar way that happens with merchant trade income.

OR

(b) a bit of intentional cheeky programming by CA to stop people exploiting load/save in order to build an uber assassin/spy/merchant force.

Ive noticed several times that if an agent succeeds on the first attempt (after playing a few turns without reloading) they will almost always fail on subsequent attempts if you reload.

e.g. your assassin has a 50% chance to kill his target - you try and are lucky and succeed. Yay! And then you cock something up, e.g. forget to move an army before clicking your turn and decide to reload. So you have to re-do the assassination as well, but this time it fails. So you reload and try again. And it fails. And again. And again. And again. I've seen this behaviour with both assassinations and merchant takeovers.

A coincidence that the first time was the only one to succeed? Hmmm...

Its as if the chance to succeed (the actual value used, not the displayed value) is being reset to the minimum 5% on doing a reload, and is only properly recalculated during the next turn. It seems like a load/save bug, but the fact that the displayed value isnt also reset makes me suspicious thats its intentional to stop exploits.

Can anyone's experience shed any light on this (to confirm or deny)? E.g. Excalibur Bane, do you ever reload to try to ensure an assassination is a success? Or are you in fact successful because youre playing right through?

[Nestor]

In my experience, the success percentages for assassins between 20 and 80 at least are all the same for the computer and totally misguiding for the player. I believe that the game gives you two chances to succeed or fail in an attempt. If you fail and reload you have a chance to try again. If you fail for a second time there's no point to try again. You need to use another agent with chances above 90% to reset the pre-decided outcome.

I found this by chance when I had failed attempts that were giving me success rates around 35%. Just for fun I reloaded and tried another agent with a given percentage above 70%. The result was exactly the same. The game has decided that it was my turn to lose and all the percentages between 20 and 80 % fall in the same category.

I don't exactly know how the dices are rolled again but I never had to use more than 3 other agents before I was in a winning situation no matter what the exact percentages were.

I have to say I'm sick and tired of all those agents moving through my lands without permission. I am at war with a faction and his diplomats are taking their holidays in my lands? They should risk dying without the use of assassins just for walking or staying in a hostile environment.

[Whacker]

In my experience, the success percentages for assassins between 20 and 80 at least are all the same for the computer and totally misguiding for the player. I believe that the game gives you two chances to succeed or fail in an attempt. If you fail and reload you have a chance to try again. If you fail for a second time there's no point to try again. You need to use another agent with chances above 90% to reset the pre-decided outcome.

I found this by chance when I had failed attempts that were giving me success rates around 35%. Just for fun I reloaded and tried another agent with a given percentage above 70%. The result was exactly the same. The game has decided that it was my turn to lose and all the percentages between 20 and 80 % fall in the same category.

I don't exactly know how the dices are rolled again but I never had to use more than 3 other agents before I was in a winning situation no matter what the exact percentages were.

I have to say I'm sick and tired of all those agents moving through my lands without permission. I am at war with a faction and his diplomats are taking their holidays in my lands? They should risk dying without the use of assassins just for walking or staying in a hostile environment.

It's possible, but my testing doesn't jive with this. The most recent assassin test I did against an unnamed french captain on a small stack I performed 50 times using reloading. My assassin was skill 5, the chance of success was listed at ... I think 33-35%. I think I succeeded 4 times out of those 50, and they were random successes, the last one was about my 46th try.

/shrug

[Lochar]

It's possible, but my testing doesn't jive with this. The most recent assassin test I did against an unnamed french captain on a small stack I performed 50 times using reloading. My assassin was skill 5, the chance of success was listed at ... I think 33-35%. I think I succeeded 4 times out of those 50, and they were random successes, the last one was about my 46th try.

/shrug

I havent tested that much at all but there does seem to be hidden variables that take place.

I had one of my better agents trying to kill another assasin and his chance was about 70%. Even loading 5 times I would either miss or get caught/killed.

Possibly different victims have hidden resistance thats not being displayed correctly, I dont know but over 50% chance of success shld be hit or miss alot more than what it seems or I have rotten luck.

My King is malevolent now and has title master of assasins wth the new agent recruitment I have done the last few turns.