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Thread: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

  1. #31
    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    I must admit I had expected the Mongol Horse Archers to be the best light horse archers by far. Their heavier ones I'm not too surprised about as it truly seems that their strength lay in the lighter version. While factions such as the Russians and Byzantiens seems to have gone a couple steps in the heavier direction, with the Egyptians and Turks trailing slightly behind (at least that seems to be fitting with the game).
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  2. #32
    Member Member Mr Frost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Orda Khan
    Am I the only one surprised and disappointed that Mongol horse archers are not the strongest in the game? Mongol heavy archers only better than Mameluk HA thanks to stamina? It all seems rather odd to me

    .....Orda
    Don't forget , the Mamluks were professional soldiers the same as the Mongols , and were likewize trained from childhood . They were also the first to actually beat a full Mongol army in battle .
    The Mamluks' horses were also larger and stronger if I'm not mistaken . They should be quite strong . I question the relatively low moral of Sipahis too {and want to see Sipahis of the Porte return ;p} .

    Has the Mongols' relative weakness in desert and tropical conditions is properly implemented . It was a big factor in their failure to conquer Egypt , and India for that matter . Their steppe ponies being unable to take such weather and their performance suffering thereby .
    Perhaps the C/A couldn't get it to work quite right so they chose to lower the Mongols horse archers stats to prevent them from making their faction overpowered ?

    As Quillan states the XP bonus they start with might be the mechanic the C/A chose to fully represent the Mongols prowess ; moral is the most important virtue in a warrior after all .
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  3. #33

    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Frost
    Don't forget , the Mamluks were professional soldiers the same as the Mongols , and were likewize trained from childhood . They were also the first to actually beat a full Mongol army in battle .
    The Mamluks' horses were also larger and stronger if I'm not mistaken . They should be quite strong . I question the relatively low moral of Sipahis too {and want to see Sipahis of the Porte return ;p} .

    Has the Mongols' relative weakness in desert and tropical conditions is properly implemented . It was a big factor in their failure to conquer Egypt , and India for that matter . Their steppe ponies being unable to take such weather and their performance suffering thereby .
    Perhaps the C/A couldn't get it to work quite right so they chose to lower the Mongols horse archers stats to prevent them from making their faction overpowered ?

    As Quillan states the XP bonus they start with might be the mechanic the C/A chose to fully represent the Mongols prowess ; moral is the most important virtue in a warrior after all .
    Mr Frost, I don't forget. Those Mameluk professional soldiers you talk about were the result of Qipchaq prisoners sold to the Sultan as slaves by the Mongols.
    I can assure you that they were most definitely NOT the first to defeat a Mongol army. The full Mongol army you talk about was merely a rear guard and consisted of mainly Georgian and Armenian auxiliaries; they were completely outnumbered (yet I am fully aware of Islamic claims that each army was relatively equal in size) and even considering this, the outcome hung desperately in the balance.
    The Mongols had access to horses from many areas of the steppe and yet we are constantly reminded that they rode the ponies we see in Mongolia these days. Horses in central Asia such as the Akhal-Teke stand 15.2HH which is taller than the 14.2HH - 15HH of the Arab. The Bashkir of the Urals stands 14.2HH, so no there was no great difference in size.
    There are many reasons behind the defeat at Ain Jalut and I don't want to go into them here, the subject has been debated at length, over and over in the Monastery, do a search for Mongols.

    I am also well aware that Mongol armies are heavily upgraded but I question the stats none the less. As it stands, they rely on upgrades whereas historically their horse archers were second to none. Without those upgrades they are lesser units, stat wise.
    It reminds me of RTW/BI where Alan mercenary HA had better stats than Hun HA. Here again history shows us otherwise.
    It's all very well to script in command bonuses and upgrades but that won't cut it in MP, where such scripting does not exist

    ........Orda

  4. #34
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    It's all very well to script in command bonuses and upgrades but that won't cut it in MP, where such scripting does not exist.
    That's a legitimate problem I did not consider.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  5. #35

    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    Sorry Doug, I did not intend to take this off on a tangent and to be fair, CA has done a great job of reproducing the Mongol threat this time around. I would rather they achieved this with less influence from extremely talented Generals and more through better base units.
    Let's look at the Szekely unit in MTW. If the Hungarians possessed such a strong unit why would they worry about Mongol horse archers?
    In BI, the Alan unit had better stats than the Hun and it was cheaper. In MP this put the Huns at a considerable disadvantage, all their cav was matched, for less cost by other factions and these factions also had decent infantry units which the Huns lacked.
    I had not checked the stats in M2TW and when I read this post and saw Mongol heavy archers with same stats as a Mameluk HA I could not believe they have done it again. But there you go eh?
    Since when did Byzantium field such tremendous mounted archers? Throughout their history they enlisted the help of Huns, Avars, Pechenegs, all of whom had been driven from their homelands by stronger steppe armies.

    Keep up the good work and wait for the arrival of Mediaeval Total Realism, when there will be some nice additions for the admirers of those who drew the bow on horseback

    .....Orda

  6. #36
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    Why are you apologizing? Stop that. Obviously, this guide is not intended to exclude multi-players. We've commented on something important without my even realizing it.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  7. #37
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    FYI: I haven't forgotten this, but have been simply buried by a work project for the last week. Sorry for the delay.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  8. #38
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    Better unit stats and what not is a great idea. As it stands, their power come from the 6 chevs and their uber generals. That feels kinda cheesy. They almost never rout and that makes for their strength.

    Why not just make the units stronger than others but otherwise normal? Also, the trait "Khan's Conqueror" of +6 just feels cheesy. Mongols should be able to do well without resorting to such cheese.

    Anyone else notice how amazingly weak Khan Genghis is? He's a fricking 1 star! I managed to crush his army and then chase him across the steppes capturing and ransoming him every turn. (lasted 4 turns until they refused).

  9. #39

    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson
    Why are you apologizing? Stop that. Obviously, this guide is not intended to exclude multi-players. We've commented on something important without my even realizing it.
    With so many threads going 'off topic', I did not want to be the start of this guide deteriorating into a 'why aren't the Mongols the best' debate. I had not compared stats per HA and was genuinely shocked to see how poor the Mongol stats were. CA seem to have a fondness for Byzantium IMO and I would love to see their reason for handing them the best HA in the game. Vardariotae was a term applied to the transfer of population within Byzantium which could encompass far more than natural steppe (HA) dwellers.

    Better unit stats and what not is a great idea. As it stands, their power come from the 6 chevs and their uber generals. That feels kinda cheesy. They almost never rout and that makes for their strength.

    Why not just make the units stronger than others but otherwise normal? Also, the trait "Khan's Conqueror" of +6 just feels cheesy. Mongols should be able to do well without resorting to such cheese.

    Anyone else notice how amazingly weak Khan Genghis is? He's a fricking 1 star! I managed to crush his army and then chase him across the steppes capturing and ransoming him every turn. (lasted 4 turns until they refused).
    Precisely!!
    The Mongols lack infantry and rely on their strength which is the HA, if this unit is downgraded they do not have any strength. A custom battle at 10k per army will highlight my point.
    It was worse in BI for the Huns. Attila's armies were anything but all cavalry, by this time Hun armies resembled any other Germanic army with the addition of Hun HA (Huns being by far the minority in their European Empire) CA gave them a terrible infantry choice yet they gave almost every barbarian faction HA that were both cheaper and stronger and now they have done it again.
    If all those Mongol armies were led by 2 or 3 star generals, they would pose no threat at all.
    Add to this problem the return of 4 max same unit type (without incurring tax penalties) it is very hard to buy 20 units at 10k (and with cav based armies you are already disadvantaged because you have less men)
    The dilema continues

    ........Orda

  10. #40
    Praeparet bellum Member Quillan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    Historically, the Vardariotai were an Imperial Guard unit originally recruited from Magyars who settled in the Vardar river valley, so they should be good. However, they probably shouldn't be THAT good. I expect it came about as part of CA's faction balancing process, trying to make Byzantium be a capable cav-heavy military that was still able to function effectively in the late period when everyone else has gunpowder and Byzantium has none. Really, they and the Varangian Guard should only be recruitable from the capitol.
    Age and treachery will defeat youth and skill every time.

  11. #41

    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Quillan
    recruited from Magyars who settled in the Vardar river valley, so they should be good. However, they probably shouldn't be THAT good.
    Especially since the Magyars were driven before the Pechenegs who themselves were being pressed by the Uz and ultimately all succumbed to the Qipchaqs....and we all know what happened to them

    .....Orda

  12. #42
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    With so many threads going 'off topic', I did not want to be the start of this guide deteriorating into a 'why aren't the Mongols the best' debate.
    I've no objections. Interesting topic.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  13. #43
    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Orda Khan
    Especially since the Magyars were driven before the Pechenegs who themselves were being pressed by the Uz and ultimately all succumbed to the Qipchaqs....and we all know what happened to them

    .....Orda
    To be hoest you can't use that as a baseline for strength.
    Numbers and comand ability plays just as much in as martial ability, if not more.

    You could easily have one group being a smaller significantly more elite group, and still ahve them pressed off their lands. Or little variations in combatstyle made them better/worse at tackling that exact opponent.

    If I take you on your word you basically say that the initial Arab troops were better than the Sassanid and Byzantines troops combined. Of course they weren't, but they had some things going for them that evened the score, as did all these as well.

    Besides, these were nomads, the attachment to the land is significantly less than we feel now, and way less than peasants back then felt. Chances are that at least some within each society simply didn't bother to defend and just picked up and left, perhaps believing it was about time to bother someone else anyway.

    The point is that displaced nomads don't make for an easily linear list of strength.

    But I do agree that the Mongol Horse Archers should be best. I do not agree that the Heavy version should as that was not the norm, nor did they fit the very mobile Mongolian tactics as well, while other cultures cultivated the heavy horse archers at the expense of the light ones. And Mongolian troops that looted better armour and such were just waht we would call 'upgraded' Horse Archers, and not really heavy. But again, the light horse archers should be the best there is, there can be little doubt in my mind at least.

    [EDIT] Ok I'm willing to, in fact I want it, let the Mongol Heavies have the best missile ability. After all they came from the same background as the others, so why not? But I still contest them being the best heavy horse archers in all.
    Last edited by Kraxis; 12-08-2006 at 19:20.
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  14. #44

    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    I agree. The Mongols and later, the Timurids, won because they have highly disciplined armies and good strategies. The Mongols, in particular, should have powerful baseline missile cav, not ones inflated through 3 silver chevrons. In this game, they are more like a zerg. I'd prefer their light and heavy cavalry archers to be stronger, while removing the silver chevrons and reducing the huge zerg. For the sp game, the better generals is quite realistic so that should stay.

  15. #45

    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    The very fact that Mongol armies were so highly disciplined is my point. How can that be implemented into the game other than improving the stats? You will not always have a couple of upgrades to count on. I am fully aware that one single HA is not necessarily better than another just by virtue of his birth but we are talking about units and Mongols were highly disciplined, their current stats do not show that

    .......Orda

  16. #46
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    You can't quote Napoleon without sounding pompous, but "Boney" made a point that's relevant here.

    French cavalry were bad riders but disciplined. Mamelukes were great riders and warriors but were undisciplined. If this quote I found on the Internet is a correct version of the one I vaguely remember, Napoleon figured it something like this: Two Mamelukes were a match for three Frenchmen, 100 Mamelukes were equal to 100 Frenchmen, 300 Frenchmen could beat 300 Mamelukes, and 1,000 Frenchmen invariably defeated 1,500 Mamelukes.

    All this goes to Orda Khan's point: Mongols (including the steppe horseman tribes integrated into their army) were excellent riders AND had discipline -- ferocious discipline, the kind of discipline that even the French cavalry never had. No unit of 10 Frenchmen was ever executed because one of them retreated without orders.

    So while I respect the point that the Mongols won their battles more with strategy and generalship than by tactics, I still have to agree that Mongol units were better units, even though man-per-man they were often less well equipped than their opponents.

    Second, there is no way the AI, or just about any other AI, can be tweaked to make it better than a veteran human player. The strategy and generalship advantages cannot be reliably accounted for in the game, and especially not in multiplayer.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  17. #47
    Confiscator of Swords Member dopp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    It may be a balance issue. People expect to see enormous army stacks when the HORDE shows up, whereas historically 'horde' is a military term that denotes a formation of horsemen, much like "regiment" or "corps" today. The Mongols had rather small elite armies, perhaps even outnumbered by the enemies they faced, but in the game they are made to conform to the "horde" stereotype and have waaay more armies than the whole of Europe combined, which of course they neither needed nor had the resources to field. Making them too good would unbalance the campaign game.

    If however, the complaint is that Mongol Horse Archers are inferior to other horse archers, then maybe their stats should be brought more in line.

  18. #48

    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by dopp
    It may be a balance issue. People expect to see enormous army stacks when the HORDE shows up, whereas historically 'horde' is a military term that denotes a formation of horsemen, much like "regiment" or "corps" today. The Mongols had rather small elite armies, perhaps even outnumbered by the enemies they faced, but in the game they are made to conform to the "horde" stereotype and have waaay more armies than the whole of Europe combined, which of course they neither needed nor had the resources to field. Making them too good would unbalance the campaign game.

    If however, the complaint is that Mongol Horse Archers are inferior to other horse archers, then maybe their stats should be brought more in line.
    Actually,the word horde derives from the Mongol term'Ordu', meaning camp.
    You are correct in your summary, Mongol armies in the western campaign never resembled the huge numbers represented in the SP campaign. They divided and advanced on different fronts during the assault on Russia and the southern steppes and again (even more dramatically) during the invasion of Hungary. The right wing that Orda led into Poland was diversionary, yet it succeeded in destroying any opposing army it met, Sandomir, Cracow, Chmielnik and ultimately, Liegnitz. Mongol strategy was supreme but for this strategy to work relied on well disciplined troops, highly trained men who knew their roles. I would prefer to see this portrayed in M2TW by better unit stats rather than enormous armies with multiple upgrades. Without these upgrades I would expect to witness the highly one-sided battles that I have with previous TW games. More important is the balance issue and this becomes much more evident in MP where you simply purchase units from a roster and at 10k (the recommended standard) you will find it hard to purchase a full 20 units and none of these are upgraded.
    Balance is a nightmare I know but it seems logical to me that a faction with poor infantry should be compensated and thus allowing some parity with better cavalry. With poor infantry and cavalry units that are matched or bettered by other factions, why would anyone choose that faction?
    Yes it is possible to beat an opponent with tactical skill but when your opponent is equal in terms of skill it becomes far less likely

    ........Orda

  19. #49
    Member Member Oleander Ardens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    To come back to the unti guide

    Is it just me or do the Moors have almost the perfect MC lineup to defeat the christian factions?

    Desert Cavalry seems to be the fast, cheap and jav. cavalry
    Grandine Jinete is a slightly weaker brother of the great Spanish one.
    Grandine XBow is the best Xbow shooter among the MC
    Camel Gunners are longranged armorkillers which scare the faster horses...

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  20. #50
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Oleander Ardens
    To come back to the unti guide

    Is it just me or do the Moors have almost the perfect MC lineup to defeat the christian factions?

    Desert Cavalry seems to be the fast, cheap and jav. cavalry
    Grandine Jinete is a slightly weaker brother of the great Spanish one.
    Grandine XBow is the best Xbow shooter among the MC
    Camel Gunners are longranged armorkillers which scare the faster horses...

    Cheers
    OA
    Hadn't thought of that. That would be interesting, especially since colder climates don't hurt a long-ranged camel unit that much.

    By the way, I'm also — finally — editing in some cost/upkeep figures. Also, Bedouin camel riders were a mercenary unit after all.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  21. #51
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    Quoted some of Musashi's camel gunner tactics on the Moors, with some added comment by me about enfilade fire.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  22. #52
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    Info on Timurids and their elephants are added.
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  23. #53
    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    The Timids yeah ? Can't wait... oliphant steak ja just like in Afrika ?

    Turks are missing a light cavalry with lance, have to use alans, pretty expensive in the early game.

    Personally I don't think Camel Gunner have a slow rate of fire. I found it pretty overwhelming actually. I would'nt classify it as slow at all, but that's just how I felt when testing them out.

    My Turk setup is also completely different, with Turcos being the main missile cavalry and Sipahi being the 2nd line to take on more hazardous and more prolonged engagements. Thing to note is that Turcos are fast moving wheras Sipahi are not. Turcos also have good stamina, Sipahi do not (from what I can tell anyway). This makes Turcos a far more versatile and valuable unit to all cavalry Turk armies, specially in early game. Bagging with Turcos, after sniping, yields excellent results. My typical army (which expects to be outnumbered and expects to meet high tech enemy) consists of 1 Bodyguard, 3 Kapilkulu, 4 Sipahi, 12 Turcomen. The heavy cav is in groups of two, (2 lancers + 2 Sipahi) * 2, 4*Turcomen center - attacking all along the enemy's front, 4* Turcomen right flankers, 4* Turcomen left flankers. The strong center attracts the enemy to the center and then disperses to the flanks, in the event of a general attack..
    Last edited by Shahed; 12-16-2006 at 00:16.
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  24. #54
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    Added some info on ammo, and changed the entry about elephant artillery.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  25. #55
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    I thought I might finish this guide someday. Then R'as al Ghul comes out with units stats and has units I never even heard of.

    Polish shooters? Mounted Longbowmen? Does anybody have any maintenance costs on these units, which I presume are mercenaries?
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  26. #56
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    Mounted longbowmen is a cheat unit. There is a similar unit called French Mounted Archers. They are available with an academy and have 7 armour-piercing missile attack. I don't know about Polish Shooters. I have a feeling those aren't in the game.

  27. #57
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    Added information gleaned from R'as al Ghul's unit guide. New info is in color. This includes revisions on Mongol units, HRE Reiters, Moorish Camel Gunners, Elephant artillery, Polish-Lithuanian Cavalry, Byz Vardariotai, French Mounted Archers and Mamaluk Archers.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  28. #58
    Confiscator of Swords Member dopp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    Think Mounted Longbowmen are supposed to dismount for battle, but since M2TW lacks that feature we get strange Western horse archers.

  29. #59
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member R'as al Ghul's Avatar
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    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson
    I thought I might finish this guide someday. Then R'as al Ghul comes out with units stats and has units I never even heard of.
    Sorry for the confusion. I took the names from the line "dictionary" which, as the unit file tells us, is "The tag used to look up the on screen name". I can't find the on_screen_names anywhere. While the dictionary line fits most of the time, Polish_Shooters etc. might actually have different in game/ on screen names.
    Do you need the upkeep stats?

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  30. #60
    Senior Member Senior Member katank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    Try making a couple of those units via the create_unit cheat and see their unit card etc. I'll bet a lot of em have the default Roman Peasant unit graphic.

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