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Thread: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

  1. #91
    Member Member Hun Sárkány's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

    A short remark on the arrangement of cavalry archer forces on the battlefield:

    I found that extreme concentration of firepower is best.

    This tactic (I allow myself to name it thus, but it is not one ) I developed against other horse-archer armies. What I did was to have all HA units in one general place, let them run in circles and have all of them fire at the very same enemy unit. After 300-400 arrows, there is nothing left of that unit, so I picked an other one. Then an other one... and so on.

    This way, the enemy's mobile archers were killed off in the 1s minute of the battle, while I were suffering 10%-20%-30% casualties. (note that I usually deploy half as many units as the enemy) The enemy infantry and melee cavalry was the usual walk at the market after this "process".

    It is very chaotic, very inefficient, but your army is far more easier to mobilize on the battlefield and battles are won quicker too. I like it.
    istenek kardja

  2. #92
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

    This "multiple circles" idea is interesting.

    My first impression was that you'd be shot up by friendly fire. Then I realized that units fire while in the arc of the circle closest to the enemy. With a little spacing, there'd be little overlap.

    This could be quite effective against Mongols and Timiruds. I'm anxious to try it out.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  3. #93
    Member Member Hun Sárkány's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

    I dont say I have no friendly fire. Yet, on the whole, it is still "economic" to do it... every war has casualties...

    But, with a bit of planning, you can choose places where the firing arc will be higher, so you shoot upwards.

    Anyway, the whole visual experience is worth trying it... 500 or more horsemen whirling and swirling around under heavy dustclouds... like a tornado. A very lethal tornado, and a storm of arrow hailing from within it.
    istenek kardja

  4. #94
    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

    WOW ! this is awesome work Doug ! What a brilliant evolution of the initial version !

    I am very honored that you've used some of my images and tips.
    Thank you for the credit ! I Appreciate it, deeply.

    Salute !

    Multiple Circles: I think it would be cool to watch. "Treat your men as if they were your own children", maybe I take this a bit far for a video game and I hate losing men to friendly fire. So I'd be hesistant but I have no doubt it would work.

    I did achieve the similar results, however, by using groups. For example using the left flankers (typically 4 units of Turcomans) or the right flankers (same) and concentrate their fire on one unit. It will have a good result as well.

    In fact I would typically concentrate fire, always.

    Battle is joined and the center group of 4 Sipahi is running across and shooting across from left to right of the enemy front line. The flanking groups (of 4 each) are shooting at the flanks of the enemy front line. I would focus 4-6 units from both groups to fire on the same enemy unit until it is significantly depleted. The pendulum movement of the Sipahi across the enemy's front would mean that 2 units would have to be switched from supporting the left flankers and then the right as the Sipahi moved out of range of support for one flanking group and then the other. Slightly complex to manage maybe.

    If the enemy unit is depleted, I would then attempt a lure, by charging and engaging that unit and one or two others, allowing the enemy to send these units into retreat, which could result in a rout, or allowing the enemy to pursue. Which could result in an isolation of the depleted unit which would then present an opportunity to bag (surround and annihilate).

    Salute !
    Last edited by Shahed; 02-14-2007 at 01:07.
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  5. #95
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

    Those images are great, Sinan. Thanks for those and the kind compliments about the guide — especially since much of it consists of your images and ideas. The guide is a collaboration.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  6. #96

    Default Re: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Hun Sárkány
    I dont say I have no friendly fire. Yet, on the whole, it is still "economic" to do it... every war has casualties...

    But, with a bit of planning, you can choose places where the firing arc will be higher, so you shoot upwards.

    Anyway, the whole visual experience is worth trying it... 500 or more horsemen whirling and swirling around under heavy dustclouds... like a tornado. A very lethal tornado, and a storm of arrow hailing from within it.
    Hun Sárkány has described a worthwhile tactic. Massing your HA to target individual units in this way decimates that unit so quickly (you don't need to completely wipe it out) it allows you to remove a threat almost instantly. This was a very useful method in STW and MTW, where HA are static but with mobile HA the battlefield effect is wonderful.
    I used this tactic recently against a Turkish army that fielded loads of Janissary archers, JHI and Ottoman inf; I must have had about 12 or more HA units attacking the Turkish right flank. With CC selected, all units gradually became one huge tornado that ate its way along the Turkish line. A very effective tactic when faced with a lot of hybrid units

    ........Orda

  7. #97
    Experimental Archaeologist Member Russ Mitchell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

    Having real problems pulling the tactical suggestion in the game. With two units selected, they don't want to waypoint.

    Some beginner error I'm committing?
    Ngata tsukelan mokwisipiak!

  8. #98
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

    Re: Waypoints.

    I'm stumped. Having more than one unit should make no difference. I'll check on this the next time I'm home, but I won't be home until Friday at the earliest. :( I've waypointed multiple units before, however. Can somebody else help out here?
    Last edited by Doug-Thompson; 02-19-2007 at 18:13.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  9. #99
    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Russ Mitchell
    Having real problems pulling the tactical suggestion in the game. With two units selected, they don't want to waypoint.

    Some beginner error I'm committing?
    For waypointing:

    1. Select your group.
    2. Hold shift and right click the waypoints on the battle map.


    That's it. The units should now move to the next waypoint immediately after reaching the first etc. However, there is a minor delay for reforming in between waypoints.
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  10. #100
    Experimental Archaeologist Member Russ Mitchell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

    Yep, that's what I did... the single-unit "waypoint it, then click RUN!!!" method works pretty well (though I don't get what the cantabrian circle adds to the affair.. I didn't get run-shoot-run-circle-go over there-run-shoot or anything like that).

    But with two groups selected, I got to see their positions, and no new movement. Maybe I wasn't being patient enough with unit reformation...
    Ngata tsukelan mokwisipiak!

  11. #101
    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

    CC is to make it harder to hit your HA with missile. It is also for playing "style" running, circling, shooting, running.... etc.

    Perhaps they did'nt run and circle and shoot maybe because you did'nt activate CC at waypoint 1. You have to activate the special ability Cantabrian Circle once you are at your desired location. Perhaps you did'nt get movement in between waypoints, maybe because the unit was not reformed.

    I don't know why you did'nt get the desired result, I'd advise to read the initial post on CC again. If you follow the steps, one by one, it should work.

    Wish I could do a video of it, that would be much easier. Can't afford the time unfortunately. If you have any questions fire away.
    Last edited by Shahed; 02-20-2007 at 17:37.
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  12. #102
    Experimental Archaeologist Member Russ Mitchell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

    No problem. I'll try it again with multiples, and be careful to wait for reformation before picking the next one...
    Ngata tsukelan mokwisipiak!

  13. #103

    Default Re: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Hun Sárkány
    A short remark on the arrangement of cavalry archer forces on the battlefield:

    I found that extreme concentration of firepower is best.

    This tactic (I allow myself to name it thus, but it is not one ) I developed against other horse-archer armies. What I did was to have all HA units in one general place, let them run in circles and have all of them fire at the very same enemy unit. After 300-400 arrows, there is nothing left of that unit, so I picked an other one. Then an other one... and so on.

    This way, the enemy's mobile archers were killed off in the 1s minute of the battle, while I were suffering 10%-20%-30% casualties. (note that I usually deploy half as many units as the enemy) The enemy infantry and melee cavalry was the usual walk at the market after this "process".

    It is very chaotic, very inefficient, but your army is far more easier to mobilize on the battlefield and battles are won quicker too. I like it.
    This is how I use Jinettes, often against the enemy general's bodyguard - an excellent way to get rid of him.
    I support Israel

  14. #104

    Default Re: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

    Waypointing should work. Look for the little red positional markers.
    I've not experienced a problem with it but I do know that orders fail to reach all units in a group sometimes, though I've not seen this happen with HA

    ......Orda

  15. #105
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Russ Mitchell
    No problem. I'll try it again with multiples, and be careful to wait for reformation before picking the next one...

    Did you turn skirmish off?
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  16. #106
    Experimental Archaeologist Member Russ Mitchell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

    Yup. I'm guessing that I wasn't patient enough while waiting for them to reform. I originally figured I could simply get them to keep moving through each waypoint, rather than doing the dippy "let's form into a square" deal at each waypoint...
    Ngata tsukelan mokwisipiak!

  17. #107
    Member Member Boyar Karhunkynsi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

    A 50/50 mix of Cossack Cavalry and Dvor Cavalry with about 4-6 units of Dsmtd. Boyar Sons is the most effective army I have used. I slaughtered everything the Byzantines had on the Balkan Peninsula, save Constantinople with this simple mix.
    I know the Vardariotai gave me a lot of trouble, but rarely do the Byz AI use more than a couple of units of them. The Dvor Cav. are too slow to deal with them, so the Cossack Cav. comes into play. I find that with three units of Cossack Cavalry shooting the Vardars down, they quickly rout, or are destroyed. This can be happening while your Dvor Cav. is slaughtering the Byz Infantry, or Archers. The Boyar Sons will have little trouble dealing with anything left, especially as the Dvor Cav. can make very effective Heavy(ish)-Meduim melee cavalry.

    Basically, Russian H/A's own all (except the Kazak...).

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  18. #108

    Default Re: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

    Impress guide. But how do you best use HAs and infantry skirmishers togather. I'm interested because I am playing as the turks and they seem to have good examples of both types.

  19. #109
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJace
    Impress guide. But how do you best use HAs and infantry skirmishers togather. I'm interested because I am playing as the turks and they seem to have good examples of both types.
    A fair question, but not one that's been thoroughly explored.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  20. #110
    Member Member Chaos Cornelius lucius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

    Playing as Turks, a 'perfect' army type that I found very useful was

    6-8 fast HA
    3-4 turkish archers, or ottoman inf
    3-4 saracens or Jan HI
    Selection of heavy cav, or a couple of Alan mercenary cav if available.

    I would split my HA equally and place them wide on the wings, my archers lined up in the centre with infantry close behind, and heavy cav in close support on the flanks. At the start of the battle i would send the HA around the flanks of the enemy dealing with any enemy HA or light cav in the process. This is usually fairly easy as with 3 or 4 HA in a group on each flank you usually outnumber the enemy light cav and can destroy it fairly easily. With my HA now behind or on the enemies flanks shooting at there rear I will start to bring up my main army to archer range. I find that concentrating arrow fire on units causes lots of casualties very quickly and means you can reduce the enemy army a lot faster than having one missile unit shooting at one enemy unit.
    Whilst doing this I will be looking to pick off enemy units with my fast cav (usually missile units that have strayed a little to far away from the main body of the army), and charging enemy units in the rear with my HA if I get the chance. Whilst they only have a low charge rating, HA units are very effective when hitting an enemy unit in the back, and there fast speed means you can get the charge in and be away before the enemy cav can catch you. It takes a bit of practice and concentration, but if you can get several units of cavalry doing this at the same time on different flanks, you can take apart an enemy army with little cost to your own troops.(it's also quite comical watching the enemy cavalry rushing to and fro trying to intercept your charges )
    When my troops have reduced the enemy army enough I will usually send in my heavy cav with a frontal charge and charge with my HA from the flanks and rear at the same time. This usually routs the enemy fairly quickly, and my HA and light cav have fun picking off all the routing units.
    My infantry in this type of army is usually just used for insurance for if the enemy charges me, and as a holding line until I can get my cavalry round the flanks of the enemy.
    As an aside, when concentrating you missile fire I find it is better to go for the enemies light troops as these will take casualties a lot faster than heavily armoured units, and with these light units reduced or out of the way it is a lot easier to concentrate your troops on the enemy heavy units.
    Hope this helps.
    Luc

  21. #111

    Default Re: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

    The key to getting the most out of missle troops is to fire as many shots as possible. So in this respect is it better to use them cautiously by moving them out of enemy fire (which decreases the number of volleys per minute but maintains a high number of shoots per volley)? Or is it better to use missle troops less cautiously by having them stay their ground even in enemy fire (which increases the number of volleys per minute, but more rapidly diminishes the number of shots per volley)?

  22. #112
    Amphibious Trebuchet Salesman Member Whacker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

    A thought that occured to me while re-reading this great guide.

    Videos. We need videos.

    Replay files are great but they're always invalidated whenever the next game revision comes out. I'm talking real .avi videos. Doug's guide is outstanding but sometimes words can't do justice to the tactics he's describing, hell I'm having trouble envisioning and (properly) acting out the various methods. Sooo.... Can we get some of our more talented HA nutballs to whip up some tutorial videos? It doesn't have to be narrated or subcaptioned, just something we can look at. You'd have to use something like FRAPS to do the captures, or perhaps some other tool I'm not aware of that can do this. Anyone else think this is a good idea?

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  23. #113
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

    Obviously, videos are an excellent idea. Sinan recommended that very thing, too. I wish I knew how to make them.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  24. #114
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

    Chaos Cornelius lucius:

    Very nice description. We need more of that sort of thing, of combined arms tactics.

    TheJace:

    I prefer getting in there and shooting close. Obviously, you want to be on higher ground to maximize your fire while minimizing the effect of the other guy's, to concentrate and to keep foot archers moving if possible.

    All in all, however, I prefer getting in close.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  25. #115
    Amphibious Trebuchet Salesman Member Whacker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson
    Obviously, videos are an excellent idea. Sinan recommended that very thing, too. I wish I knew how to make them.
    It's settled then. Some thoughts... FRAPS is the only tool I know of that has the ability to make avi videos like we're talking about. There's a free version but it's crippled, the full version is $37. Unless you have a desire for it, I kinda doubt you'll want to shell out for that Doug. You could get the free version and run it but I'd like to do this right the first time. If you DO decide to buy the full ver, I could easily walk you through setting it up and using it.

    My other idea is to exchange replay files and I'll make the video, as I happen to own a full ver of FRAPS. I suggest we wait until v1.2 to do this, and we or whomever else does this needs to ensure that we're using the bone stock exact same version of the game, no mods or tweaks. This way the replays will work exactly as originally done.

    If there are other free tools that work like FRAPS then someone should please point them out. If there are and they work I can walk you Doug or whomever else through setting them up.

    The last thing I'd like to request in this, and please don't take this the wrong way folks, but personally I'd like to see only the very best of the best do this for us. These vids are going to be used as examples and in my view they should be as close to perfect as we can get them.


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  26. #116
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    Just a bit of light editing after the patch: Straggling and sloppy formations are much less of a problem in v1.02. Also, other units now make better router chasers. Missile cavalry still retain some advantages as chasers, but their clear superiority there is not what it used to be. The need for open formation during chases is lessened, also.
    Last edited by Doug-Thompson; 05-07-2007 at 22:29.
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  27. #117
    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    Thanks for the update Doug.

    I've given the Egyptians a try as well, and actually I think they're awesome for all cavalry. Probably outclass the Turks with the Mamluks. I'm not 100% sure yet, but I saw they have sturdier cavalry in early game. However it's worthy to note that I use Turcoman heavy armies (which are light cavalry), so naturally when you take an Egyptian all cavalry army, and have a few Mamluks the difference in early (green units, no exp) melee is quite remarkable.

    BTW I've got a nice image here that all missile cavalry fans might enjoy.
    Last edited by Shahed; 05-08-2007 at 03:28.
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  28. #118
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Missile Cavalry Unit Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinan
    Thanks for the update Doug.

    I've given the Egyptians a try as well, and actually I think they're awesome for all cavalry. Probably outclass the Turks with the Mamluks. I'm not 100% sure yet, but I saw they have sturdier cavalry in early game. However it's worthy to note that I use Turcoman heavy armies (which are light cavalry), so naturally when you take an Egyptian all cavalry army, and have a few Mamluks the difference in early (green units, no exp) melee is quite remarkable.

    BTW I've got a nice image here that all missile cavalry fans might enjoy.

    Quite right. Mameluk archers are better melee cavalry than Arab Cavalry, except for the expense. Also, they are not as dependent on lining up a perfect charge because they are so strong in melee with that mace, which has an anti-armor bonus. Great all-around cavalry unit.

    Re: The image link.

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  29. #119

    Default Re: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

    I have found that a useful way to use Skythikons, especially early in the game when the Byzantine troops are very poor is to pair them up with town militia.

    I set the Skythikons out in front of the TM but just beyond the range of enimy archers and attract the attention of an infantry unit. I then beat a slow, orderly retreat letting the swordmen or spearmen come close to catching me. I then run behind the TM and setup as archers while the TM absorb the charge of the depleted unit. Before the TM route I run back around and attack from the flank.

    This can work well for the Byzantines because their troops appear to cost much less to maintain so you can have just hordes of them
    Gray Beard
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  30. #120
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunters All Their Lives: A Missile Cavalry Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Beard
    I have found that a useful way to use Skythikons, especially early in the game when the Byzantine troops are very poor is to pair them up with town militia.

    I set the Skythikons out in front of the TM but just beyond the range of enimy archers and attract the attention of an infantry unit. I then beat a slow, orderly retreat letting the swordmen or spearmen come close to catching me. I then run behind the TM and setup as archers while the TM absorb the charge of the depleted unit. Before the TM route I run back around and attack from the flank.

    This can work well for the Byzantines because their troops appear to cost much less to maintain so you can have just hordes of them

    I wish I had the figures to back this up, but horse archer fire is generally less accurate when firing backwards, while galloping away.

    What you've described, Gray Beard, is a thoroughly sound tactic. That's just one factor I thought you ought to know. The advantages probably outweigh that one disadvantage.

    ========

    Added a link to a thread on Reiter tactics and made some more comments on 1.02. Also, consider the impact of fixing the shield bug on the Polish Streczy.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

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