Squalor - It's just not fun.

**Akka** · 11-30-2006, 01:05

Originally Posted by Aves

Most medieval communities had very low birth rates.

Completely wrong. Average medieval birth rates were extremely high. What was very low was the increase of population, because death rates were also very high, particularly that of young babies.

**Musashi** · 11-30-2006, 01:11

It's really really simple to avoid squalor in this game.

Just don't build any of the farm upgrades. At all.

If you never build even land clearance, then your city population will never go much past 28000 or so. At that population level it's easy to keep them happy with the public order inducing buildings and a couple of militia squads.

It means your population grows slower, so you won't get to the highest tech level as fast, but you'll have VASTLY less problems with rebellion and unrest in the long run.

**Grimmy** · 11-30-2006, 02:51

Actually, it would be kind of a hoot if once the first settlement of whatever faction we were playing was built on "the new world" we'd start seeing a reversal in city pop to represent all those adventurer types heading off to pillage and plunder as well as those undesirables being transported off to serve as bondservants and thralls to those same adventurer types.

**Dooz** · 11-30-2006, 02:56

Well, would you look at that, a perfect opportunity to self-promote. If any of you guys are interested, I did a little bit of text editing and reduced population growths in a little "mod" I put together to suit my playstyle. You guys can check it out if you want, it's the link in my sig. That, along with not investing too heavily in farm upgrades greatly improves gameplay. My current French campaign feels really good compared to vanilla. I'm sure more work will be done in this field by more experienced modders once the patch and extractor come out, but until then you can still have a playable game.

**ScrapTower** · 11-30-2006, 03:21

Originally Posted by Musashi

It's really really simple to avoid squalor in this game.

Just don't build any of the farm upgrades. At all.

If you never build even land clearance, then your city population will never go much past 28000 or so. At that population level it's easy to keep them happy with the public order inducing buildings and a couple of militia squads.

It means your population grows slower, so you won't get to the highest tech level as fast, but you'll have VASTLY less problems with rebellion and unrest in the long run.

If you dont build any farm upgrades, you tech slooooow because tech depends on pop. You also miss out on the extra cash from the crops and the extra pop.

**Dooz** · 11-30-2006, 04:28

Originally Posted by ScrapTower

If you dont build any farm upgrades, you tech slooooow because tech depends on pop. You also miss out on the extra cash from the crops and the extra pop.

Heh, that's exactly the kind of gameplay I go for. I like staying at techs for longer to enjoy them longer, get to know them better. Also, I like the tighter economy because of the lower population. Different strokes for different folks is the law of the land.

**Nestor** · 11-30-2006, 05:42

Personally I don't build farms except for castles. I am still pretty preoccupied by the way squalor was working in RTW.

I can control cities with population around 35000 with the second level farms.

Can someone positively say that you can now control huge cities with top level farms?

**danfda** · 11-30-2006, 05:58

I have a Russian campaign with Novgorod and Moscow both at about 45k-50k in terms of population, and each have up through crop rotation researched (only irrigation left to go). I have absolutely zero problems with Novgorod, as it is consistantly at about 125% happiness level (it is, however, my capital, and my faction leader is present with about 6-8 units of militia). Moscow sits at around 100-105%, with a general and about 6-8 militia units, and I've never had any revolt issues. Squalor in both, I believe, is at 80%. I have not built all of the pub. health buildings (have about one left in each, but I am in no rush). The only revolt problem I've encountered had to do with a newly taken huge city with a solidly catholic population, which should come as no surprise. All in all, squalor effects seem greatly reduced and much more reasonable. My main issue is with rebels--most of my garrisons are for rebel killing...I need to edit that down...

Control seems to be possible, Martok, very possible...

EDIT: Forgot to mention, but pop growth varies between -0.5% and 0.5% in both cities.

**andrewt** · 11-30-2006, 07:13

Huge stone wall gives 15% order. Mayor's palace gives 45%. Pleasure palace gives 25%. City watch (3rd barracks) gives 15%. Huge cathedral gives 30%.

Sure, the final upgrades are expensive but the mayor's palace is only 4800 for the last upgrade and gives 45% total. You'll need to upgrade your settlement level so you'll have the 15% from huge stone wall. The city watch is only the 3rd barracks upgrade so it's pretty cheap. You can build church and brothel upgrades depending on which is cheaper at the moment. Since squalor is capped at 80% (30k pop at huge stone wall), you can put low taxes for an additional 30%. You also get 6 garrison units for free upkeep and these should give 10%.

The fact is, the squalor cap pretty much means building farms is ok. The first 2 upgrades pay for themselves pretty fast and allow you to tech up fast and get higher trade income faster.

**Musashi** · 11-30-2006, 05:30

Originally Posted by ScrapTower

If you dont build any farm upgrades, you tech slooooow because tech depends on pop. You also miss out on the extra cash from the crops and the extra pop.

Yeah, but you can't have it both ways. Population growth is what CAUSES squalor.