MTW2 MP balance issues

[Cheetah]

Lets start a discussion on balance issues. Though I have the game I got no time to play MP as yet, but I have heards some rumours about spanish musketeers, weak spearmen etc.

Please post only well identified issues with specific units, also please give examples.

[Fenix7]

We can start with unit sizes. If I quote |Heerbann|_Di3Hard

I played some games with the Elite clan together. They used small units if they played 3vs3. In my opinion, these size is too litte.

Due the lag issues this might be better solution atm, but I prefer normal unit size. Even if there is no lag I would not go above the normal unit scale.

[NihilisticCow]

What do people feel about basic archers (i.e. not armour piercing/crossbows)? In a game I've had 4 peasant archers shooting their entire ammo into the back (though not always, the engagement kept turning) of dismounted feudal knights and had about 7-12 kills a piece... just seems a bit too weak to me, I know they're very basic archers, but surely they should do a bit more damage?

Most people seem to agree that muskets etc. are too strong.

[Monarch]

Peasant archers are peasants, so if you liken them to their infantry counterpart then really you'd have to say they should be very weak.

I hope in a patch they make Spanish Musketeers more expensive, and tweak w/e other balancing in late era because I've played a couple of 1v1 late eras today, HRE (me) Vs Venice which I won a close victory and HRE Vs England (me) which I lost, both were very enjoyable, theres just something about the gunpowder which I really like, however I admit High era is best due to balancing.

[Fenix7]

I usualy play 10k matches and I almost don't use any upgreads on this florin level.

Regarding era's it seems to me that hight (we could add early too) era is the only one more or less nicely balanced. This are first impressions so far.

[t1master]

i've noticed archers/xbows outrunning my heavy cav. even if they're heavy they should still get caught by cav. could be operator error, but i usually can catch a unit of arrows even with gothic knights or camels in vi...

[tootee]

i've noticed archers/xbows outrunning my heavy cav. even if they're heavy they should still get caught by cav. could be operator error, but i usually can catch a unit of arrows even with gothic knights or camels in vi...

have not had m2tw yet, but logically no foot should be able to out-run a horse? even if a horse is tired..

[Orda Khan]

Speeds have been changed yet I still see men on foot managing to out run cav

.....Orda

[][GERUDO][Mojoman]

well technically a dude with no armour on at all might be able to outrun a tired horse that is wearing metal plates and has a 1-ton knight in inch thick plate on his back

[tootee]

well technically a dude with no armour on at all might be able to outrun a tired horse that is wearing metal plates and has a 1-ton knight in inch thick plate on his back

have never seen a real horse in person (except at the race-course), but was just wondering, were horses used for heavy cav usually had better stamina rather than speed? I wonder if a horse will just walk when it is tired even if the rider forces it to run? i mean.. horses aint that smart right

I believe normal men will get really tired relatively quickly (like sprinting 400m) when running away from a horseman, and out in the open probably will be just sitting duck?

[RTKBarrett]

Unit size normal is perfectly fine with me... lag issues are a patch concern i believe.

Archers is a tough one cow, these pavise crossbowmen arent what the stats suggest... Anyways, dnt half the units in this game have AP ability? it was something that was seen as unique and important in BI... here its just normal.

Musketeers are the most rediculous thing i have seen in tw since the elephant artill... should i stop now? :D How can a unit with such range and power be seen as valid considering the timelines we are playing in. A unit of British redcoats would be happy to be that accurate over such a long range, it just boggles the mind... so yes monarch thats a must! to be adjusted.

Aonar i agree with u on high era being best. Early era is pretty standard across western europe as most factions have replica unit lists. It also appears that such giants as the turks/egyptions/moors are very weak at this level. In late the balance again goes bad as musketeers come into play which ive already stressed i hate... High is good because u can consider every faction as being strong. Western nations have their knights and crossbows, eastern factions have the powerful archers, heavy infantry to match the west etc. Everything at that era from what i can see can be good...

Most horses for medieval heavy cavalry would have been bred for size i wouldve imagined... no mongol ponys gonna take on such a challenge and manage to catch a skirmisher unit.

In response to cheetahs post on "weak spearman", i think the balance is perfectly fine... in the charge spearman cannot withstand knights but when bogged down and surrounded cavalry fall like flies which i think is accurate. Pikes only do better because they have the ground to absorb the force of a horse whilst a man cannot do so on his own...

[Beast_of_fear]

well technically a dude with no armour on at all might be able to outrun a tired horse that is wearing metal plates and has a 1-ton knight in inch thick plate on his back

Mounted knights NEVER wore "inch thick iron plate" to begin with.
You're talking about something that would weight probably HUNDREDS of pounds!
From what I've seen of historical issues they were mostly mounted on "clydesdale type" horses (european) and no, a bowman on foot is not going to outrun that animal no matter what.

[Puzz3D]

The cav/inf speed ratios should have been adjusted for more differential when the skeletons were redone for M2TW. They will never be adjusted now because of the amount of work involved. In the old engine, the walk, run and charge speed of every unit type is individually adjustable in the unit stat file making it possible to fine tune the dynamic balance of the units.

[UglyandHasty]

I think cav need more speed. Especially the lighter units like mounted sergaent.

[Paolai]

how can you say that high era is the most balance one when there are not pikes? How you can outstand the overpowered cav charge without the only unit that can match it? I wonder if I am playing the same game as you . Imho the only balanced era is the late one with no musks.

[Orda Khan]

Hopefully the patch will address things like that

.......Orda

[Fenix7]

I wonder if I am playing the same game as you.

The only way to find this out is that we meet in lobby and try this out. So far spears counter cavalry good enough for me (I admit that sometimes I back them up with a cav unit)..there could be something I'm not aware of it - yet.

I've seen many people using option ''all'' instead of era and you are able to chose between many variety of units.

[Darsh]

The only way to find this out is that we meet in lobby and try this out. So far spears counter cavalry good enough for me (I admit that sometimes I back them up with a cav unit)..there could be something I'm not aware of it - yet.

I've seen many people using option ''all'' instead of era and you are able to chose between many variety of units.

I prefer all periods just for fun.

[Paolai]

spears do nothing against cav charge
On high era just 2 factions have pikes (france and scotland) so imho high cannot be a blanced era. Late and/or all eras are the most balanced ones.

[Monarch]

Not all factions on late have pikes.

In addition you can't really say its the most balanced "as lnog as theres no muskets", because if you need to take out a unit that many factions have to balance it, I doubt you can call it the most balanced.

[Paolai]

Not all factions on late have pikes.

but more than 2 right? Maybe more than 3-4-5-6...lets say 10 ok, but surely not just 2

In addition you can't really say its the most balanced "as lnog as theres no muskets", because if you need to take out a unit that many factions have to balance it, I doubt you can call it the most balanced.

You can ban a unit in late/all era (musks), but you cannot add a unit (pikes) in high era for the factions that have not them. I hope you catch my point, and thats why imho late/all is the more balanced one.

[CeltiberoMordred]

I'm agree with Paolai. The lack of units in early/high able to counter cavalry charges is worrying, but it's just a first impression.

I still need time to play and see if there is any way to counter cavalry charges, because I find them very devastating (40-60 kills in normal size, maybe too high).

[Paolai]

Hi Mordred
Sadly there is just one way to counter the cav charge: pikes, spears are a joke. This is a really important iussue, and I wonder how CA could make tha cav charge soooo strong. How they tested it?

[Fenix7]

spears do nothing against cav charge

What I had in mind is that I use 2 to 3 spear units as a waste units on opponent cavalry, supported with my own cav units. That is what I've had in mind when I've wrote that ''spears are good enough for me'', but when we are talking about spear units sustaining cavalry charge..I agree with the words mentioned above.

[Cheetah]

how can you say that high era is the most balance one when there are not pikes? How you can outstand the overpowered cav charge without the only unit that can match it?

First of all spears are much cheaper than cavs, so if you lose your spear but your opponent losing his cavs it is a good deal for your. Second, the assumption that the only way to counter a cav charge is a solid block of spears might not be entirely correct. What about a cav counter charge or some manouvering?

Please also note that:
a, The cav charge to be succesful some special conditions have to be meet. Cav should be facing the target and it should have a clear path to it.
b, Practically the charge is the only weapon of cavs. As soon as they get pinned down they die. (with which I somewhat disagree but in the light of rtw cavs I understand these changes)

[Darkarbiter]

About spears... cant you just usually just move your spears so the cavlry have to lift up their lances to gain the charge bonus again. Then when the cavlry are busy trying to reform you charge and they die. Oh and btw cavlry are supposed to be powerfull against all but pikes so I dont see what your complaining about although admittably the swiss pikes got eaten by any heavy infantry... (havent played m2tw unfortunately but know a lot about the period)

I'm part of the SCA (society for creative anacranism or something like that). We are a group of medieval reinactors. After maybe 1 months training a man can be taught to run faster then a normal person (I.E. untrained peasent) wearing 50kg of armour. They take a while to get up to speed but the whole idea that light infantry can run 2x as fast as heavy infantry is ridiculas (so long as heavy infantry are trained [like knights!]). I heard the estimate of about 100-120kg for a fully armoured foot knight and 250kg for a fully armoured man and his horse. I don't really know that much about horses but heavy horsemen should be able to run at least a bit faster then light infantry at least for a little while. The only time i could see light infantry running faster then heavy horse is if the heavy horse have just done a 100m charge but if the horses have rested for at least 2 minutes they should be able to outrun light infantry for a while at least (should be enough to go behind your own lines again). I dont really get where the whole idea of hes wearing metal armour therefore he can only run at 0.5 metres a second is coming from... sure they may not be able to run distance but by god a man in armour whos trained can sprint.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

I still don't have the game, but hey, it has never stopped me from commenting so far

First of all spears are much cheaper than cavs, so if you lose your spear but your opponent losing his cavs it is a good deal for your. Second, the assumption that the only way to counter a cav charge is a solid block of spears might not be entirely correct. What about a cav counter charge or some manouvering?

When I read cav counter charge against cav, I feel like you actually acknowledge there is a balance issue

Please also note that:
a, The cav charge to be succesful some special conditions have to be meet. Cav should be facing the target and it should have a clear path to it.
b, Practically the charge is the only weapon of cavs. As soon as they get pinned down they die. (with which I somewhat disagree but in the light of rtw cavs I understand these changes)

I got to say it looks like both features are likely to make the game more interesting and more challenging. It's the kind of comment that makes me want to buy this game (now, if you can also mention a lagless 4v4...)

It also probably means that it will increase the difference between good players that are able to make good use of cavalry, and not so good player... Skill threshold might be higher...

However, among good players, able to make very good use of cavalry charge, the question remains: how can you skillfully stop or deter a cavalry charge with non cavalry unit?

Louis,

[NihilisticCow]

To some extent I've used double lines of infantry, so the first line gets hit and the second line attacks, but it's not an ideal solution at all as cavalry can pull back. I would agree that cavalry charge head on is far too strong in that there isn't really anything apart from pikes that can withstand it. I've seen too many games that involved wiping out an entire line of infantry with a cavalry charge from multiple units and then proceeding to fight the cavalry behind who get the morale penalty from routing units. Yes cavalry needs a clear line and needs to be facing, but it's not that hard to accomplish, even easy for frontal attacks.

[Paolai]

First of all spears are much cheaper than cavs, so if you lose your spear but your opponent losing his cavs it is a good deal for your.

The cav charge is so strong that you can kill about 3/4 of a unit spear just charging without loosing 1 cav and this is imho ridicule. The cav charge is so strong to seems bugged.

Second, the assumption that the only way to counter a cav charge is a solid block of spears might not be entirely correct. What about a cav counter charge or some manouvering?

Righ ok, then I assume that you are agree with me: spears are a joke. To counter cavs charge you need another cav charge. And is it good for you? This means that on high era we will have again 10 cavs vs 10 cavs. Good
No m8, you have spears to counter cavs, swords to counter spears and cavs to counter swords. This is what I mean for balance, I wonder what does it means for you: Cavs to counter swords, cavs to counter spears, cavs to counter cavs, very good isnt it?

The cav charge to be succesful some special conditions have to be meet. Cav should be facing the target and it should have a clear path to it

And is it difficult? You charge only when you have a clear path, and at least for me it is not so difficult. In some weeks you will see more and more 12 cavs army, beleive me.

Practically the charge is the only weapon of cavs. As soon as they get pinned down they die. (with which I somewhat disagree but in the light of rtw cavs I understand these changes)

No, the charge is ONE of the cavs weapon and absolutely not the ONLY! Thier job is to attack on flanks and on the back. Do you really use the cavs only to charge??? Are u sure? Are you serious?

[Darkarbiter]

The cav charge is so strong that you can kill about 3/4 of a unit spear just charging without loosing 1 cav and this is imho ridicule. The cav charge is so strong to seems bugged.



Righ ok, then I assume that you are agree with me: spears are a joke. To counter cavs charge you need another cav charge. And is it good for you? This means that on high era we will have again 10 cavs vs 10 cavs. Good
No m8, you have spears to counter cavs, swords to counter spears and cavs to counter swords. This is what I mean for balance, I wonder what does it means for you: Cavs to counter swords, cavs to counter spears, cavs to counter cavs, very good isnt it?


And is it difficult? You charge only when you have a clear path, and at least for me it is not so difficult. In some weeks you will see more and more 12 cavs army, beleive me.

No, the charge is ONE of the cavs weapon and absolutely not the ONLY! Thier job is to attack on flanks and on the back. Do you really use the cavs only to charge??? Are u sure? Are you serious?

Well yeh admitabbly i havent actually played m2tw but ive played the demo and ive played mods that are like it (I never play vanilla RTW) but I think half the problem with lots of guys getting wiped out is about unit sizes. From the looks of the demo low detail on m2tw is medium in RTW and so long as you have shaders off it works reasonably well. So i dont see the lag concern. At least i could probably play huge 2vs2 or large 3vs3. Also whats wrong with using cavlry to counter cavlry? I think you guys are thinking too hard.
You have Enemy Cavlry-Allied cavlry-allied infantry


--------------EC




-------------AIAI
--------------AC
THEN


-------------EC

---------AI------AI

-------------AC
Now the enemy is pretty screwed. If they charge your infantry then they will get charged by the cavlry and or get sorrounded and if they go for the cavlry then theyre gonna get sorrounded.
Although i heard that unit speeds in m2tw are too slow but then thats what mods are for! Perhaps MP will just need a good mod to be balanced.
If you wanna see some other good medieval battles check out crusades mod for BI.
Btw the above tactic is pretty much what the romans did against elephants (except they didnt have cavlry to counter elephants).


And if you hate cavlry so much play forest maps. They cant charge at what they cant see.