EB literally?

[Lord Condormanius]

I'm not trying to be snide, and this may sound like a stupid question that has probably been answered at least 1768 times, but I'm relatively new here so I'll ask it anyway. Doesn't Europa Barbarorum mean "Europe of the Barbarians" or something along those lines?

[abou]

Yes, and the subtitle reads as, "Everyone is a barbarian to someone."

I can diagram it for you if I want, but that is because I'm a nerd.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

EB was originally made to accurately represent the barbarians of Europe, but expanded from that.

It is somewhat explained by the team on the main page of the website:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/

[Lord Condormanius]

I was trying to get it straight in my head, Europa Barbarorum as opposed to Barbari Europae.

[Zenith Darksea]

Well, the difference is that europa barbarorum means 'Europe of the Barbarians', whereas barbari europae could mean either 'the barbarian's Europes' (not very likely, that one!) or 'the barbarians of Europe'.

[Lord Condormanius]

I know the Latin. I know what they mean literally. The "Barbarian's Europes?" That would be an odd construct. I was thinking more along the lines of the contrast between "Europe of the Barbarians" and the "Barbarians of Europe."

Thanks.

[Magnificant me]

If you know the Latin then you know that barbarian was the term used to describe a forigner, particularly the Germanic kind due to the way the speek and how it is simular to a sheep noise. Once you put all that in there it should make some good sence, kind of.

[Lord Condormanius]

Kind of. Its actually derived from an adverb (barbarus, -a, -um) in Latin.

The ber ber noise thing you're talking about is older than Latin and the Romans. The Greeks used the word barbaros to refer to the people they encountered that could not speak Greek.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

And thus the true(original) meaning of barbarian is non-greek.

[Lord Condormanius]

And thus the true(original) meaning of barbarian is non-greek.

non-Greek, meaning a person that does not speak Greek.

[Zenith Darksea]

However it's wrong to say that it didn't have negative overtones. It may have meant 'foreigner' rather than simply 'barbarian', but it still implies inferiority. In a positive or neutral sense, the word for 'foreigner' would be 'xenos'. 'Barbaros' does imply that the person isn't as good as a Greek, and often this does mean that their culture is inferior too.

[Lord Condormanius]

However it's wrong to say that it didn't have negative overtones. It may have meant 'foreigner' rather than simply 'barbarian', but it still implies inferiority.

It certainly does. They probably said it with an air condescending disgust.

[Magnificant me]

Of cource it did, why wouldn't it? Both the Romans and the Greeks thought they were the "superior people" so not being them ment you were less than them in every way.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Not just the Romans and Greeks though. What well-developed ancient culture did not think themselves much "better" than their neighbors or outsiders? Or at least all not like them as worse.

[Watchman]

"The Greeks, a people brave in words rather than deeds."
And I'll be damned if the sentiment wasn't returned in some form.

[Conqueror]

"The Greeks, a people brave in words rather than deeds."

Who was it that said/wrote that? Just curious...

[Watchman]

Don't remember, some Roman. Or at least the name under that loading-screen citation seemed pretty Latin to me anyway.

[-Praetor-]

I`ll bet my mother-in-law that was a roman.

EDIT: arg, you beat me

[Lord Condormanius]

I`ll bet my mother-in-law that was a roman.

Hey! I didn't know we could do that.

[-Praetor-]

Not that many people would accept that kind of bet...

errrrrr... well, it depends...

...like, ahm, the kind of mother in law....

...and...

...like... its daughther...

It`s pretty subjective, but rest assured that with mine you`re like 20:1...

[Lord Condormanius]

...so whether or not you're planning on winning or losing the bet?

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Not just the Romans and Greeks though. What well-developed ancient culture did not think themselves much "better" than their neighbors or outsiders? Or at least all not like them as worse.

The Persians? (Cyrus)

[QwertyMIDX]

The Persians definatly thought they were better than just about everyone else (except maybe the Medes, who they were culturally similiar too). Of course they did conquer pretty much the known world in a couple of generations, that seems to give most peoples a big head.

[Foot]

The Persians definatly thought they were better than just about everyone else (except maybe the Medes, who they were culturally similiar too). Of course they did conquer pretty much the known world in a couple of generations, that seems to give most peoples a big head.

But at the same time they didn't go around imposing their own culture on the citizens of their empire. In fact a lot of the persian culture was influenced by the cultures who had been made subject to the empire. Their conquests seem to be mostly pragmatic in nature rather than ideological - except for their hatred of the hellenes of course, those wars were a big mistake.

I have badge that says:

"I'm Persian-Friendly"

Foot

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

But at the same time they didn't go around imposing their own culture on the citizens of their empire. In fact a lot of the persian culture was influenced by the cultures who had been made subject to the empire. Their conquests seem to be mostly pragmatic in nature rather than ideological - except for their hatred of the hellenes of course, those wars were a big mistake.

I have badge that says:

"I'm Persian-Friendly"

Foot

I don't think they even had an "Ideological" hatred of the Greeks, not until the Greeks conquered them, anyway. The Greeks seem to go the same way, they were fine with the near East until it tried to go West.

Although, as I understand it, the Sassanids were more totalitarian.

[Foot]

I don't think they even had an "Ideological" hatred of the Greeks, not until the Greeks conquered them, anyway. The Greeks seem to go the same way, they were fine with the near East until it tried to go West.

Although, as I understand it, the Sassanids were more totalitarian.

Yeh, I probably should have mentioned - its all about the achaemenids, baby!

Foot

[Shigawire]

Did not the word "barbaros" derive from the persians shouting "go go!"?

"bar bar bar!"

Something like that.. and then the words stuck to the Greek literary memory.

I can not confirm this, but I did read it somewhere. It sounds plausible..

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Is the Farsi for "go" bar?

I thought it was because they bleated like sheep.

[Lord Condormanius]

I'm not certain, but didn't the whole Persian/Greeks thing start when Athens came to the aid of the Ionians, sacking Sardis, after their revolt was crushed by the Persians?

I'm sure other factors didn't help either:

-The elimination of Lydia as a buffer state.
-Darius' being constantly reminded by Hippias, the ousted Athenian tyrant, that the Athenians wronged him.

But yeah, I don't think there was any ideological hatred of Greeks on the part of the Persians. Just a little mud in the eye.

[Tellos Athenaios]

More or less correct. Although it's maybe good to know that officially the Spartans had been at war with Persia for ages... (Sparte had been an ally of the Lydian king, and had agreed to help him in his war with Persia.)

About ideology: why do you think there's something called Europe? It's after all a Greek invention, to distinguish the free Greek/Western world from the Eastern and Southern world which was ruled by tyrants (the kings of Persia)...

Barabaros is a word to indicate anything that is not Greek, and from the Persian wars onwards it's main use is to name the Persians. It's said that this word is derived from the Greek idea that other peoples like the Persians or the Thracians didn't have a proper language - just a mix of indicipherable sounds. In Dutch, the word 'Gebrabbel' is a very good description of the Greek view on those sounds.