News on the patch.

[Doug-Thompson]

Thanks for the apology.

I make generalizations too. My generalization is that anybody who plays a game this complex and deep for a leisure time activity is not dumb and deserves a certain level of respect.

In that spirit, I'll edit my post to Jambo and tone it down a bit.

[Barry Fitzgerald]

I feel myself that I take every TW game I have played on it's own merits...and try not to get into a versus debate. Course it happens we compare them.

I had areas that didnt please/impress in STW/MTW/RTW....in many ways they share similar points..but they all play differently..and have their own pros and cons. The important part is that the experience was enjoyable..and it was fun.

I think MTW worked...and it was bolstered with a fine expansion pack VI....that really helped breath new life into the game. In 2004 warts and all RTW worked for me...at that time. I also like the unit diversity...playing barbarians was very different to romans, phalanx units..etc etc.

That appealed to me. Who didn't have fun blasting those elephants through a huge AI army of cohorts...flying everywhere! It did entertain...albeit in a flawed way...as did MTW

In some ways BI for RTW wasnt in the same league at VI..but it was still decent enough, and it offered a different way of playing compared to the original RTW. I won't comment on Alexander..didnt appeal to me..and looked a little rushed.

I liked the campaign map on MTW, and the battles of RTW. For MTW2 I am enjoying the campaign map much more this time around....less so battles at present..though this may change.

I wonder how long we have all spent playing these TW games..and maybe we have reached the point where we do need amazing new thrills to really get worked up again? Maybe we have TW 'ed ourselves to death and it just isnt so mind blowingly good anymore?

Are we just changing the piano player..who plays the same or similar song...? Or is it like having chinese every night of the week for a year......love it but you are going to lose some interest after a while?

[Orda Khan]

I wonder how long we have all spent playing these TW games..and maybe we have reached the point where we do need amazing new thrills to really get worked up again? Maybe we have TW 'ed ourselves to death and it just isnt so mind blowingly good anymore?

Are we just changing the piano player..who plays the same or similar song...? Or is it like having chinese every night of the week for a year......love it but you are going to lose some interest after a while?

Yes I have been thinking exactly that since RTW. I have also been through the
"Why don't you just quit and get a life?" syndrome.
This was going to be my last effort anyway, only 'Mongols Total War' could stir my interest further. Certainly any Napoleonic, American Civil War or similar theme would bore the pants off me

.........Orda

[Orda Khan]

Doug, I don't think Jambo directed any comment at you. And I am certain that he has tried to enjoy the game; he is not the constant Mr Negative either. I share his thoughts and I have to add that the SP campaign of any of the titles has been marred by the AI. This is the reason why 99% of my TW play has been MP and the reason is simple. For tactical challenge.
Each and every TW has had a poor tactical AI (if I talk AI it usually means tactical due to my lack of in depth knowledge of SP campaign) but I would argue that the STW AI provided the best challenge of them all.

As an example, I have not played any TW game for ages, close to a year. I tried M2TW in a custom battle, I was forgetting commands and all sorts yet I destroyed the enemy and lost only 37 men. Don't get me wrong, SP campaign battles were always too easy to win but CA promised so much with M2TW and even when the blog revealed how they screwed things up with the AI, it also stated that the mistake was known and had been rectified and a patch was promised. Now I don't give a damn that it did not appear with release and I don't really give a damn now, because I don't have the game. But I see the AI as the crucial part of SP and I echo Darkmoor_Dragon, because this is not the first let down. In essence you could argue that Palamedes came here and told us we were buying a game that had just been messed up but of course he also mentioned that patch. The taunt about how the AI on VH would be a real challenge to a TW vet, that was a bit like a dangling carrot.
As long as the AI stands there clueless as it is reduced by arrow fire to levels where victory is impossible, I won't buy it, or at least I will stick to MP.
I think Jambo was referring to the individuals who have constantly posted glowing reports about M2TW, even before it was released. I find this annoying but unfortunately negative posts have to be thoughtfully written. Woe betide us if we dare talk badly of CA or hint at 'fanboyism'. To be honest I am p1$$ed off just like you but for completely different reasons.
I don't mind odd bugs, they seem to be the norm with most PC games (I wouldn't know, I only play TW games) but without an AI there is no game. And what p1$$es me off is that CA tell us the AI is screwed and we see countless "this game is awesome" posts.
I can only conclude they are using auto resolve.
However, Knowing Jambo and also knowing his approach to the game, if he says the game is seriously in need of a patch I would tend to worry for SP.
On the other hand I could buy the game, install the all factions mod and have some fun as the Mongols, there won't be much to stop my horse archers

..........Orda

[Doug-Thompson]

Thanks for your thoughtful post, Orda.

If I recall the blogs and the what's been said on this thread and in your post correctly:

The AI was better in the Beta version and then was messed up by a last-minute change attempt. CA promised to fix this mistake in a opening-day patch. The patch is a no-show. Now we have an admitedly bugged battle AI and no patch.

The patch would be released by now except that so many other bugs were found in what should have been a finished product, it's delaying the release of this crucial fix.

Doug, I don't think Jambo directed any comment at you. And I am certain that he has tried to enjoy the game; he is not the constant Mr Negative either. I share his thoughts and I have to add that the SP campaign of any of the titles has been marred by the AI. This is the reason why 99% of my TW play has been MP and the reason is simple. For tactical challenge.

I respect that. Certainly, I've lost few battles, have never lost by very much and won one that I definitely should have lost. However, the reason we are in this fix — please correct me if I'm wrong — is because CA attempted an 11th-hour fix after receiving input from players and slipped up.

They should issue a patch. It should include the information necessary to mod the game. However, I think round after round of criticism for an offence they've already admitted to in writing is a little much.

[Edited P.S.: I also believe that the vast majority of other "bugs" reported are attempts to put personal preferences in the patch rather than fix real problems. Allow me to cite an example that I cited myself: I declared a Jihad. It succeeded in a couple of turns, walking through the gates left open by a spy and then taking the city with few loses. I get a message telling me the Jihad's over but with no real victory. I reported this as a bug. After sleeping on it, though, I have to ask -- why should I get the experience points and piety from a Jihad that was no sweat. This might be a bug, or it might be an anti-BS Jihad measure.]

As long as the AI stands there clueless as it is reduced by arrow fire to levels where victory is impossible, I won't buy it, or at least I will stick to MP.
I think Jambo was referring to the individuals who have constantly posted glowing reports about M2TW, even before it was released.

If you vouche for Jambo, that's good enough for me, Orda.

I find this annoying but unfortunately negative posts have to be thoughtfully written.

I haven't found that to be true, unfortuantely.

Woe betide us if we dare talk badly of CA or hint at 'fanboyism'.

Or anybody who gives CA a break.

I don't mind odd bugs, they seem to be the norm with most PC games (I wouldn't know, I only play TW games) but without an AI there is no game. (Emphasis added, and I agree.) And what p1$$es me off is that CA tell us the AI is screwed and we see countless "this game is awesome" posts.
I can only conclude they are using auto resolve.

Fair enough.

However, Knowing Jambo and also knowing his approach to the game, if he says the game is seriously in need of a patch I would tend to worry for SP.
On the other hand I could buy the game, install the all factions mod and have some fun as the Mongols, there won't be much to stop my horse archers

There you go. Nothing like cutting a swathe to cheer a guy up.

[Darkmoor_Dragon]

And what p1$$es me off is that CA tell us the AI is screwed and we see countless "this game is awesome" posts.

Well, indeed and let me tell you that THAT is a major hurdle and problem.

Think of all the plaudits and praise heaped upon MTW2 by player and reviewer alike and then consider that we, essentially, KNOW that they all played a game in which the AI was generally acting like a snail in mid-winter.

How then do we, putting ourselves in CA's shoes, regard the future when the "awesome" AI comes in to play

"Good God Sir! We'll frighten all the gamers away!"
"It will be too hard!"
"Dumb the AI down!"