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  1. #1
    Member Member Reapz's Avatar
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    Default Optimizing Heavy Cavalry charges in the Campaign

    I'm fighting a lot of battles in my campaign with heavy cavalry (particularly against Hungary who are fielding lots of feudal knights) and I am trying to get the best from my units. I have been playing TW games for years and I know all the basics of using cavalry so I'm not talking about flanking, charging from the rear, downhill, or multiple directions simultaneously, weakening target morale first, etc. I am talking about the M2 specific quirks - if there are some. I think there are as cavalry feel a bit different in my hands - maybe more realistic in that you can't go clicking all over the place during engagements. Time spent in setting up the engagement is critical. So I wonder how other people micromanage their cavalry charges?


    I have reviewed the threads in all the forums on this and it seems like there is a lot of confusion.

    In these forums in this thread in the Guild Hashashiyyin (based on play-testing) says:
    "The key difference between M2:TW, and its predecessors, is the use of single-clicks verse double-clicks. It's a big difference. In all other total war games (to my knowledge and experience), the difference between single and double click only differed with the units movement speed. Single click was a slow march, used to get into position with out tiring your troops. Double click was the "Charge those infidels!" command telling your units to charge into combat.

    In M2:TW this has changed a little. Single click is for "engage that enemy" and double click has become get "here" as fast as possible"

    "Well in M2:TW, Single-clicking tells your unit to "engage" another unit. That is, they will walk/trot in formation to a point 15-25 meters away, close ranks, rally and then charge.

    Double-clicking tells your units to get "here" as fast as possible. Thus, your units don't "charge" because they are trying to get to that point/enemy as fast as possible and don't have the time to set up for a proper charge. This has become a command for flanking maneuvers and light/archer Calvary pursuit orders only!"

    "So [how] do I get good with charging? Practice with a lot of custom battles. Most importantly, SINGLE-CLICK your unit if you want them to charge! Double-clicking should only be used for flanking maneuvers"
    So I concluded that he was suggesting that:

    - Cavalry charging in M2TW is different from the other games in the TW series
    - use double-clicking to move units quickly around the battlefield only
    - single-click for the best charge results.

    However in this thread over at the totalwar.com forums - entitled "Time to dispel these single/double click charging myths" - Gutted says (again based on play-testing):
    "i'm just going to give it to you straight.. from many hours of observation and testing, and tell you how it actually is"

    "There is no new charging system as some have dubbed it. It is the same as every other TW version"

    "after many tests by myself and others... double clicking (or running in general) has infact been found to be much better"
    But wait - in this thread at TWCenter:

    dear mad says:
    "I had 2 cards of Knights of St. John. They were green. In battle after battle they just couldn't get it together. I'd line them up. Wait a bit- then single click... they charged sometimes, other times not."
    and goes on to suggest the difference might be battle experience bonus affecting unit cohesion?

    MasterAdnin had tested and delivered some hard data on that theory:
    "I tested this a bit, and I found that experience helps a lot. I had two units of Feudal Knights, one maxed out experience, the other a new unit of Feudal Knights. I clicked the opposing unit from far away first with the new unit of Feudal Knights, their charge was unorganized and screwed up very bad, they didn't do too well. Now, I restarted the custom battle using the experienced unit of Feudal Knights. I did the same thing, clicked the opposing unit, same unit, from far away. They charged and completely anihilated the unit within a few seconds. I guess experience really does help a lot in M2TW."
    Some people, like Hamburglo, say it isn't complicated - just fire and forget:
    "Once your cav are moving towards the enemy and are fairly square, attack the target unit. Double or single click, it doesn't matter. Enjoy the carnage."
    But others disagree and say it is very complicated like Vihuri who says:
    "in campaign you just cant get the damn buggers do a charge"
    Procopius did get the buggers going tho' - he says:
    "There is no knight charge bug!!!!!!! I played a battle in my Venetian campaign: my Venetian half stack against HRE three quarters stack of militia spearmen, armoured spearmen, dismounted feudal knights and crossbows. I had 6 units of Venetian Broken Lances. Ground was level and unwooded....I advanced at a walk.... Then I ordered each unit of cavalry individually to charge using one click only. As someone else said it is important that you only charge units which are directly in front of the charging unit, that the ground is level, and that you are not obstructed by other units.

    My cavalry continued to approach at a walk. Then just moments from impact they all lowered lances and broke into a devestating mass charge. First time I saw this in my Campaign!!! German infantry units were reduced to half strenght in a matter of seconds. Bodies went flying into the air, just like RTW. Then my broken lances drew their swords and kept on going. Ninety percent of the Imperials routed, the rest retreated and routed when pursued. My infantry never had to fight. I wiped out 15 units of HRE infantry using nothing but 6 units of heavy cavalry and supporting fire from 2 crossbow units."
    The other theme in the TWCenter posts is that cavalry charges are bugged for example The Black Prince:
    "its very difficult to get cavalry to charge in the campaign battles because it relies on facotrs often not in your control.

    if the unit you select to charge starts marching after oyu order a charge, the cavalry switch to pursuing instead of charging. thats a bug....

    the slightest thing can interupt the charge as well.... a single knight getting caught up by another unit and starting fighting will cause all the knights to switch to melee mode. and with all the well documented unit cohesion problems that affect all units, thats a serious problem

    cavalry are also affected by the engagement bug that prevents units from fighting properly, which really doesn't help"
    Sooooooo the challenge is to try to make sense of these and other observations in gameplay to use cavalry optimally. So (with Heavy Cav at least) it seems what is less in dispute is:

    - keep good tight formation
    - need a certain distance from target to initiate a charge (can't charge if engaged or snagged by another unit along the way)
    - need to be facing (or nearly facing) the target
    - experience affects outcome
    - can't switch targets or direction in mid charge
    - if the target moves that might be a problem

    Some people are already implying this confusion over using heavy cavalry reflects a bug - which I think is unhelpful. It might be bugged or it might not, but it seems some people get good results the way the game is now with their cavalry charges while others don't. I want to figure out how to use the game engine, as it is now, to get the best from my units. If they need more experience, or a certain positioning, or other factors as yet uncharacterized, then I want to know how to do/get those things.

    One other thing that is unresolved in my mind is the triggers that make knights switch from using lances to swords, and the effects of that on kill rate?

    So does anybody have a clear understanding of how to use heavy cavalry to best advantage against higher quality units, or have found a system that they like, that works consistently to get the best from a cavalry charge?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Optimizing Heavy Cavalry charges in the Campaign

    The AI will often move units round to counter threats, so, if you are advancing to charge their line with your cavalry, they might shift a few units to counter you, often resulting in your cavalry bumping into each other. the simplest method i hav found is to advance them to the point where the enemy responds to the threat by redeploying, waiting a sufficient time for them to complete their maneuvers, and thn ordering the charge.

    It is also useful to have several strong missile units to discourage the enemy from advancing, in the face of cavalry and melee units only the enemy has a tendency to come out and meet your cavalry before they are ready to charge.

    It is also of use to attack any units behind an archer screen, since this will often retreat as you approach, and if you were attacking them, your attack would be disrupted somewhat.

    regards

  3. #3

    Default Re: Optimizing Heavy Cavalry charges in the Campaign

    ok well i just tried the whole single click charge thing and it most def works. i tried numerous battles, heres the scenario.

    english vs scots.

    english army made of 1 unit of dismounted knights, 1 generals body guard
    scots 1 unit of noble knights.

    in EVERY scenario, i sent the melee in, and sent my general round behind, once the infantry had engaged, i rode my gen up behind and SINGLE clicked the enemy, the walked up, and once within a certain range, they blow a horn, all the lances levelled and they broke into a devestating charge which cut the enemy infantry into peices, and i mean from like 60 men to like 20 men. they were routing almost instantly after the charge hit.

    just my 2 cents

    Cheers Knoddy


    p.s. this even works with a frontal charge on infantry, another test, generals body guard into dismounted feudal knights, walked in, got into range charged, and took the unit from 90 to about 30 in a matter of moments for the loss of 2 bodyguards, huzzah for cav working properly :D
    Last edited by knoddy; 11-30-2006 at 00:28.
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  4. #4
    Typing from the Saddle Senior Member Doug-Thompson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Optimizing Heavy Cavalry charges in the Campaign

    Move loose, fight closed.

    I leave my cavalry in loose formation until I have the enemy unit I want to charge directly in front. Then I one-click for an attack. Then I tighten up the formation by hitting the "c" hotkey, because the loose formation helps get the knights pointed in exactly the right direction before they close up. This has the added advantage of avoiding some missile hits, which can cause knights to fall into the "Stop, we have to tidy our formation" problem.

    Even after all that, the enemy starts riding away when they see a knight formation lining up -- a very reasonalble response.

    That's fine with me. I just wanted to scare them back into my hail of arrows anyway.

    If the target unit's pinned in melee, however, it dies.
    "In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

  5. #5
    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Optimizing Heavy Cavalry charges in the Campaign

    Oddly enough I have been unable to reproduce the problems I myself have faced in the campaign regarding charges.

    In Custom battle my knights have does exactly as they should. Even when moving them at odd angles before ordering a charge, they still carried it out. Meanwhile in my campaign battles anything but the most perfect situations and setups have ended up in the dreaded 'swordcharge'. I wonder what gives.

    In any case, I have begun to view the Custom battles a bit sceptically when it comes to cavalry.
    You may not care about war, but war cares about you!


  6. #6

    Default Re: Optimizing Heavy Cavalry charges in the Campaign

    One additional observation:

    In many campaign battles, I find having a block formation tends to increase the chances of a correct charge as supposed to say a 10 across-3 rank deep formation.

    ---

    This observation might explain why some people have good results, while others have unfavourable results. I used to always charge with a 2 rank deep formation, but one - it wasn't maneuverable and two - it doesn't charge well (only 20% success in campaign).

    I think this issue is related to unit cohesion. Apparently in the game, it is difficult to charge maintaining a long line in shallow formation, as supposed to a shorter line with a deeper formation.

    You get a reduced impact area, but I think charging in a deep mass improves the survivability of cav. if you need to withdraw. Partly because 1/2 of the formation is still behind the original impact line.
    Last edited by ravinnder; 11-30-2006 at 04:41.

  7. #7
    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Optimizing Heavy Cavalry charges in the Campaign

    Hmmm... I will try that...
    You may not care about war, but war cares about you!


  8. #8
    Amphibious Trebuchet Salesman Member Whacker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Optimizing Heavy Cavalry charges in the Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by ravinnder
    One additional observation:

    In many campaign battles, I find having a block formation tends to increase the chances of a correct charge as supposed to say a 10 across-3 rank deep formation.

    ---

    This observation might explain why some people have good results, while others have unfavourable results. I used to always charge with a 2 rank deep formation, but one - it wasn't maneuverable and two - it doesn't charge well (only 20% success in campaign).

    I think this issue is related to unit cohesion. Apparently in the game, it is difficult to charge maintaining a long line in shallow formation, as supposed to a shorter line with a deeper formation.

    You get a reduced impact area, but I think charging in a deep mass improves the survivability of cav. if you need to withdraw. Partly because 1/2 of the formation is still behind the original impact line.
    In a sense, I think this is a spot on. By lowering the frontal area of a cav unit, you can somewhat control how jumbled up and disjointed the formation can get when moving forward. I still believe from reading that severely out of whack formations are what cause charges to fail to make a significant dent.

    Not to derail this thread, but on a related note:

    [RANT] I do NOT like how the units in M2TW seem to get so far out of formation and can't seem to hold them under any circumstances except standing completely still, and even then it's a problem. Units moving at normal and high speed, units standing still but under fire from ranged units, etc, they just can't stay in formation! Also, my experience with ranged units, in that it seems they can't all fire a cohesive salvo to save their lives! Constant fire devolves into a "everyone can shoot whenever they individually please!"

    In general, it just feels... well, sloppy, for lack of a better term. In RTW, units would keep formation very well, moving slow/fast or holding still, and even under fire. Ranged units would shoot in a cohesive, coordinated fashion. I think this introduced "sloppiness" detracts greatly from the battle experience, at least for me, and I would like to see a strong turn back to the RTW style unit cohesion.

    Just my

    We now return you to your regular scheduled thread.

    [/RANT]

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