Optimizing Heavy Cavalry charges in the Campaign

[Doug-Thompson]

Move loose, fight closed.

I leave my cavalry in loose formation until I have the enemy unit I want to charge directly in front. Then I one-click for an attack. Then I tighten up the formation by hitting the "c" hotkey, because the loose formation helps get the knights pointed in exactly the right direction before they close up. This has the added advantage of avoiding some missile hits, which can cause knights to fall into the "Stop, we have to tidy our formation" problem.

Even after all that, the enemy starts riding away when they see a knight formation lining up -- a very reasonalble response.

That's fine with me. I just wanted to scare them back into my hail of arrows anyway.

If the target unit's pinned in melee, however, it dies.

[Kraxis]

Oddly enough I have been unable to reproduce the problems I myself have faced in the campaign regarding charges.

In Custom battle my knights have does exactly as they should. Even when moving them at odd angles before ordering a charge, they still carried it out. Meanwhile in my campaign battles anything but the most perfect situations and setups have ended up in the dreaded 'swordcharge'. I wonder what gives.

In any case, I have begun to view the Custom battles a bit sceptically when it comes to cavalry.

[ravinnder]

One additional observation:

In many campaign battles, I find having a block formation tends to increase the chances of a correct charge as supposed to say a 10 across-3 rank deep formation.

---

This observation might explain why some people have good results, while others have unfavourable results. I used to always charge with a 2 rank deep formation, but one - it wasn't maneuverable and two - it doesn't charge well (only 20% success in campaign).

I think this issue is related to unit cohesion. Apparently in the game, it is difficult to charge maintaining a long line in shallow formation, as supposed to a shorter line with a deeper formation.

You get a reduced impact area, but I think charging in a deep mass improves the survivability of cav. if you need to withdraw. Partly because 1/2 of the formation is still behind the original impact line.

[Kraxis]

Hmmm... I will try that...

[Nestor]

I believe that cohesion is really the big problem here. You have seen cavalry chasing routing units: they are all over the place! The programming probably says that the effect of a successful charge spreads out at a wide angle, maybe some 180 degrees. So on impact they tend to spread out, that's fine and it seems intentional. But when they meet an opponent, that is not their target, while charging, they do the same thing: they lose their cohesion and spread out fast, really fast. There's no way they can return in formation to finish their charge while some of the soldiers reach their target with their momentum but without the effects of charging.

So, I think that any obstacle between the charging unit and their target is considered the point of impact for the charge. Even if the obstacle is a rock they might reach the target but they will immediately switch to swords. If it is another unit or the target moves the charge is defused at the first soldiers they meet. It seems like the point of impact is really just that: a central point in the enemy unit, where they start spreading out, instead of the whole width of their formation.

Even if some things are intentional the way it's working now produces some interesting (and not desired) results: instead of devastating an enemy unit that is on the move, they lose the charge bonus on first impact with a few enemy soldiers. It can't be true and it has to be fixed. Nobody expects cavalry to behave better against a spearwall than against a retreating target!

[Shahed]

Actually it is and isn't true.

Only those soldiers which manage to maintain the charge should get the charge bonus. Thos who do not manage to keep formation and run into a rock or whatever, should not get the charge bonus. They could still charge with their lances, but by now the melee is on, and it may be better to walk in with sword unsheathed, pick an opponent and hack him down. In the confusion and chaos of the battle an outsider just joining in has a great advantage of wide view of the action, which the people in the fight don't. Coming from outside he can pick and choose his targets.

A great part of the charge is the fact that the horses moving together create momentum that can dislodge simple infantry. A lone person charging cannot have the same impact on an enemy formation, and should'nt. Niether should dispersed cavalry.

21st century Total War... programming, finally.

What CA has attempted to do is good, but it's not there yet.
Still lot of work to be done.

Lot to be said here, I'll try post back tomorrow, with some cavalry specifics.

[Nestor]

Actually it is and isn't true.

Only those soldiers which manage to maintain the charge should get the charge bonus. Thos who do not manage to keep formation and run into a rock or whatever, should not get the charge bonus. They could still charge with their lances, but by now the melee is on, and it may be better to walk in with sword unsheathed, pick an opponent and hack him down. In the confusion and chaos of the battle an outsider just joining in has a great advantage of wide view of the action, which the people in the fight don't. Coming from outside he can pick and choose his targets.

A great part of the charge is the fact that the horses moving together create momentum that can dislodge simple infantry. A lone person charging cannot have the same impact on an enemy formation, and should'nt. Niether should dispersed cavalry.

21st century Total War... programming, finally.

What CA has attempted to do is good, but it's not there yet.
Still lot of work to be done.

Lot to be said here, I'll try post back tomorrow, with some cavalry specifics.

There are some things here:
i) 39 knights charging together while one guy is left behind or runs faster at the front. Should they lose the charging bonus? Because I feel that they do now.

ii) A charging unit making contact with a unit between them and their target. Do I have to tell them manually that this is also the enemy and they have the right to charge them?

iii) Moving target: it shouldn't stand a chance against a charging unit but now it does fight better than a stationary target.

I am talking about a central focal point of the charges which is just a point instead of the full face of the unit, because I cannot find another explanation for them to NOT behave properly in some instances. If someone can explain it better I am all ears.

[AussieGiant]

My 2 cents.

Charging NEEDS to be addressed by CA. Not solved, but EXPLAINED. They can clearly keep up their work on the patch but they need to pull their finger out, and "outline" what their concept is. once that is done then everyone can continue from an agreed point.

Unit cohesion is certianly part of the current design and it should be. Cohesion was a very important part of medieval warfare and it needs to be incorporated in the game. Again it needs to be EXPLAINED by CA so we can all start discussions from a central point of understanding.

Unit cohesion is bugged, but it will be in the game and people need to be aware of it. It could certainly be influenced by experience and it should be. Archers firing in unison initially is accurate, but only the very best units would stay in unison for the whole battle. Likewise for all units.

It's clearly not working as intended right now, but until the concept is outlined by CA it's like watching two teenages trying ot have sex in the dark for the first time!!

We are ALL over the place!!

[Whacker]

One additional observation:

In many campaign battles, I find having a block formation tends to increase the chances of a correct charge as supposed to say a 10 across-3 rank deep formation.

---

This observation might explain why some people have good results, while others have unfavourable results. I used to always charge with a 2 rank deep formation, but one - it wasn't maneuverable and two - it doesn't charge well (only 20% success in campaign).

I think this issue is related to unit cohesion. Apparently in the game, it is difficult to charge maintaining a long line in shallow formation, as supposed to a shorter line with a deeper formation.

You get a reduced impact area, but I think charging in a deep mass improves the survivability of cav. if you need to withdraw. Partly because 1/2 of the formation is still behind the original impact line.

In a sense, I think this is a spot on. By lowering the frontal area of a cav unit, you can somewhat control how jumbled up and disjointed the formation can get when moving forward. I still believe from reading that severely out of whack formations are what cause charges to fail to make a significant dent.

Not to derail this thread, but on a related note:

[RANT] I do NOT like how the units in M2TW seem to get so far out of formation and can't seem to hold them under any circumstances except standing completely still, and even then it's a problem. Units moving at normal and high speed, units standing still but under fire from ranged units, etc, they just can't stay in formation! Also, my experience with ranged units, in that it seems they can't all fire a cohesive salvo to save their lives! Constant fire devolves into a "everyone can shoot whenever they individually please!"

In general, it just feels... well, sloppy, for lack of a better term. In RTW, units would keep formation very well, moving slow/fast or holding still, and even under fire. Ranged units would shoot in a cohesive, coordinated fashion. I think this introduced "sloppiness" detracts greatly from the battle experience, at least for me, and I would like to see a strong turn back to the RTW style unit cohesion.

Just my

We now return you to your regular scheduled thread.

[/RANT]