Gunpowder experience needed

[Doug-Thompson]

I presume that cavalry gunners work best in two-rank-deep lines in loose formation, which allows them to move freely and fire a volley.

However, most cav archers work best in squares in loose formation.

So, which is it? Should cav gunners move around in lines or squares?

[Quillan]

Can't help you with that one, Doug. Byzantium suffers from an almost complete lack of gunpowder units, and the Spanish campaign is still before 1200 so gunpowder hasn't developed yet. Besides, I don't think the Spanish get mounted gunners of any type.

[Furious Mental]

With Reiters and Morrish camel gunners it seems to make no difference. Bit silly really.

[Doug-Thompson]

Bit silly really.

Ah. Just like HA, sounds like.

[Whacker]

Doug, my tests with HRE Reiters and Moorish Camel gunners vs Scottish Noble Pikemen (all 0 exp and armor on flat grassy plain, no weather) show that 2 ranks works best by a decent margin. When I put my cav in 2 line formation, they are able to kill the approaching unit much faster than when I put them in a block formation. I ran each test several times. On average, the Camel gunners could kill about 50 pikemen by the time I had to pull back as they neared my formation. In block formation, they could only kill maybe 20-30 before I had to pull back. I don't recall the numbers for the Reiters but it was similar. Further, I can also confirm that my gunners were far, far less accurate while moving. In summary, 2 line formation seems to elicit the best kill rates.

Cheers!

[Doug-Thompson]

Doug, my tests with HRE Reiters and Moorish Camel gunners vs Scottish Noble Pikemen (all 0 exp and armor on flat grassy plain, no weather) show that 2 ranks works best by a decent margin. When I put my cav in 2 line formation, they are able to kill the approaching unit much faster than when I put them in a block formation. I ran each test several times. On average, the Camel gunners could kill about 50 pikemen by the time I had to pull back as they neared my formation. In block formation, they could only kill maybe 20-30 before I had to pull back. I don't recall the numbers for the Reiters but it was similar.

Ah, results! Thanks, Whacker.

The whole "square vs. line" thing probably needs rechecking for HA, too. Well, I know what I'll be doing tonight instead of furthering my Egyptian campaign.

Further, I can also confirm that my gunners were far, far less accurate while moving. In summary, 2 line formation seems to elicit the best kill rates.

That whole issue needs to be quantified. A number of people have noticed that fire is less effective while units are moving, but by how much? Finding that out will require some bother. A big factor in that problem is: When a unit skirmishes away, it skirmishes a long way. I've found I get much better results when I hit "halt" when they're far enough away to be safe. They spend more time shooting that way and less running.

[Doug-Thompson]

Whacker stuck to task much better than I did, but I think I've stumbled onto a couple of things.

I used grassy field, good weather, normal unit size, 41 Mamaluks vs. 75 Scottish nobles, no experience for either. I used loose formation and ran a zigzag pattern, running all the time in front of the Scots. This left 51 Scots alive.

Then I reloaded and moved the Mamaluks as little as possible — and discovered something I think is important.

Skirmish moves a unit too far. I'm not complaining about a bug, but I am saying that an HA player who hits the "halt" button soon after skirmish kicks in spends a far greater proportion of his time shooting while standing still than shooting on the move.

Let me put it this was: Only 19 Scots survived the second round.

Furthermore, I was also driven nuts by the unit cohesion issue -- so much so that I was got sidetracked from completing the shoots and started concentrating on that.

Tapping on the "c" hotkey — in essence, going from "open" to "close" and then back to "open" again before the unit really has time to reform — goes a very long way toward herding up the stragglers. You can do it for a whole group, too. I tried doing it when a straggler was caught in melee, but it's too late by then.

Don't wait between taps. Tap it twice as fast as you can.

Thoroughly sidetracked by now, I tried the same thing with Reiters on the Morocco map. Square or line formation seems to make no difference. Range, at least for accuracy, does. PaulTa seems to be on to something here.

[Whacker]

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Group 2 - Egyptian Mameluk Horse Archers vs Scottish Noble Pikemen (81 vs 151)

Set A, stationary cavalry, tight formation, 2 row formation

1. Tight formation, 2 row formation, fire at will on, skirmish off, stationary. 128 alive 1st pullback. 95 left 2nd pullback. 67 alive 3rd pullback. 60 left all ammo gone.

2. Tight formation, 2 row formation, fire at will on, skirmish off, stationary. 128 left 1st pullback. 85 left 2nd pullback. 40 alive, all ammo gone.

3. Tight formation, 2 row formation, fire at will on, skirmish off, stationary. 121 alive 1st pullback. 94 alive 2nd pullback. 69 alive all ammo gone.

Full gold chevrons.

4. Tight formation, 2 row formation, fire at will on, skirmish off, stationary. Full gold chevrons. 104 alive 1st pullback. 69 alive 2nd pullback. 33 alive, all ammo gone.

5. Tight formation, 2 row formation, fire at will on, skirmish off, stationary. Full gold chevrons. 108 alive 1st pullback. 64 alive 2nd pullback. 26 alive all ammo gone.

6. Tight formation, 2 row formation, fire at will on, skirmish off, stationary. Full gold chevrons. 107 alive 1st pullback. 60 alive 2nd pullback. 35 alive all ammo gone.

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[econ21]

Whacker, did you put this in the battle mechanics sticky? A synopsis would be good. I'll put in a link, which I guess is enough but for future reference it would be good if people doing interesting tests could use the sticky.