Bug with Frankish Knights

**Werner** · 12-01-2006, 08:19

Noticed something strange tonight when using mercenary Frankish Knights while on the battle field. They have a french accent when they speak, infact before the battle (when all the troops are taunting you can hear them say "For France" in a weird sort of french way.) However I know now after watching the handy little vid's that came with M2TW, that "Frank" is a nick-name of anyone who was part of a large crusade, such as peasants who picked up a sword and a bible and decided to join. In otherwords, strictly having to do with the crusades and little to nothing to do with "French people". Strangely enough the Frankish knight mercenaries only became available after the first crusade took place in M2TW. Another oddity I noticed was just under the banner of your faction, when using Frankish Knights, you can see a smaller bluish banner with gold crosses on it, very similar to the French flag of the era and almost identical to the one they used during the renaissance era. Final piece of information is a direct quote from Wikipedia: "The Franks or the Frankish people were one of several west Germanic federations. They were not originally grouped into one official tribe, but "as with the other barbarians, they belonged to much smaller groups that would join constantly changing confederations."[1] The confederation was formed out of Germanic tribes: Salians, Sicambri, Chamavi, Tencteri, Chattuarii, Bructeri, Usipetes, Ampsivarii, Chatti. They entered the late Roman Empire from present central Germany and the Southern Netherlands and settled in northern Gaul where they were accepted as a foederati"

So am I wrong to think CA made a little boo-boo?

**Lothar the Malevolent** · 12-01-2006, 11:03

It's debateable. Frank is certainly not equivalent to French but the kingdom that would become France was founded by the Franks, as was the Holy Roman Empire. As far as the term being applied to crusaders, in the eyes of the people of eastern Europe and the middle east any western European would have been considered a Frank crusader or not. I would say it's more accurate for them to have a french accent than a german accent but probably inaccurate for them to be using french style flags and heraldry though. Minor details though really.

**chunkynut** · 12-01-2006, 13:59

Try getting the Dismounted Men at Arms (i think) mercs, same as Dismounted English Knights but mercs, and click on them in the battlefield and they say 'Heavy Cavalry' in an english voice!?!?!

Just a sound bite thats allocated to the mercs being wierd is all. Not so much a bug as a maybe incorrect allocation of sound files or just to make them a bit different from the units that factions have that are similar.

**Kraxis** · 12-01-2006, 14:45

You are messing things up a bit...

Frankish mercenaries were indeed available around the 'world' back then. While they were not really French, they did speak a language that can be connected to French now, and they came from what is France today (that doesn't make them French). And their culture was a proto-French culture as well.

Anna Comena (or what her name was), speaks of them and she is highly impressed with their strength in battle (they can charge down the walls of Babylon if it came to that).

They were not crusaders (they became later of course). The term of Frank on crusaders was a Muslim one. To them every man from Europe was a Frank, hence crusaders were all Franks, to be frank.

And you can most certainly hire them long before any crusade has been launched. You just need to look in the right places, however the AI factions tend to vakuum them up as fast as they are available. So I didn't get my first until just prior to the first crusade was announced.

So no, crusades and the merc franks are two different things. They can be connected, but just like any other unit can. Frankish knights were indeed knights for hire in the day, and no need to change them.

**Oaty** · 12-01-2006, 15:34

And I always thought they were saying "frankenstein" when I clicked on them

**Ulstan** · 12-01-2006, 16:56

Why do people keep calling perceived historical inaccuracies bugs?

At any rate,

However I know now after watching the handy little vid's that came with M2TW, that "Frank" is a nick-name of anyone who was part of a large crusade, such as peasants who picked up a sword and a bible and decided to join.

I have never heard of Europeans calling anyone who went on a crusade a 'Frank'. I think I'd ignore that in terms of what the game calls Franks, which would be the germanic tribe from which many medieval frenchman were descended from.

It's not quite as simple as "Franks = French" but that's certainly far more accurate than "Franks = guys who go on crusade"

**Werner** · 12-01-2006, 19:59

All very interesting, and I had assumed that Frank in M2TW had little to do with crusades anyway, but the Frankish debate is one that has carried over from Age of Empires 2, when everyone called the Franks French. Its not true, and although they may have ended up settling in an area known today as modern France, France in M2TW is still something else and seperated from the two. When it all comes down to it its just sound bytes, like the one fellow said. I just think it would be cooler if they spoke some barbarian tounge or a rouge version of German to coincide with my HRE armies, not their laissez faire French accent.

**Ulstan** · 12-01-2006, 20:20

but the Frankish debate is one that has carried over from Age of Empires 2, when everyone called the Franks French.

That's because the 'Franks' group in Age of Kings was used to represent what is indisputably the French. I think the 'Franks' nomenclature more appropriately belongs to an older time than Joan of Arc, but I think it's not terribly inaccurate to call Franks French. It doesn't bother me anymore than seeing Saxons and English equated. It's not as though there isn't any overlap.

When did the Franks stop being Franks and become French? The Merovingian dynasty? The Carolingian?

**Kraxis** · 12-01-2006, 22:03

Originally Posted by Werner

I just think it would be cooler if they spoke some barbarian tounge or a rouge version of German to coincide with my HRE armies, not their laissez faire French accent.

But the fact remains that these knights were all over the place, hiring out their services. That is why you find them in Gemrany, France, Italy and the Balkans.
And they would most certainly not speak a germanic language at this point. The Franks quickly assumed the local language when they conquered Gaul, and that was latin. Yes, celtic was still spoken, but the Franks were the new nobility and so took the language of the 'older' ruling class, who spoke latin.
The same happened in Spain and Italy for that matter.

I will say it clearly this time:

There is nothing wrong with the Mercenary Frankish Knights.