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  1. #1
    Mystic Bard Member Soulforged's Avatar
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    Default Stupidity

    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein


    First of, this topic is based on my reflections of a documentary, I don't really remember its name. The documentary goes on about one single subject: "Stupidity", with capitals.

    What would you say that Stupidity is? There's no single sistematic work on Stupìdity until today, so the scientific community and by consequence the linguistic community has not offered a definition of Stupidity appliable with certainty to all cases. An abstract of all those cases is needed in order to discuss it properly, even more considering that Stupidity is valorative and as such has a "shades zone" in wich it's more difficult to say if it's appliable or not. The only works that exist up to this date are anecdotic at best, but Stupidity is an important subject in social science as for today, considering that new terms have appeared in the last century, like "mass society". Stupidity is linked with the phenomenum of "mass society", this phenomenum that verifies a social representation of reality reflecting that of the majority, is very important in order to get a definition of stupidity. Not only the majority creates this representation of the masses, but almost subliminaly, it seems to give orders and get obidience in exchange from most people. What clothes we dress, what words we use and what music we hear is in most cases determined by this phenomena. Of course the human still has his will, but could it be that weak?

    A case that's heard most of the time related to this subject pops up when a question is asked: Do you do everything that its told to you? Or what rules do you follow? Or do you follow any rule at all? That rule seems to be given by the previously mentioned social phenomenum. Is this phenomenum new? No it isn't, but it's now more expanded than ever thanks to the increment of the mass media and the correlated increment of people who have access to it and tend to use them more per day. The answers to this questions are often: No I don't do everything I'm told to. I only follow my own rules, I don't care what everyone thinks... But is it really that way, or does this person then goes on into the rage that the rest of the public has entered after hearing the words of a public speaker, or does he starts jumping senselessly while hearing the DJ's music. The latter seems to be the most probable case, following the rule of the mass. Is the human kin condemned in this mass society to the lack of original thinking or even his own will? Or is this phenomenum a direct consequence of that wich we call Stupidity? And for instance. Can it be overcome? Even if it's in a few cases.

    But are we really "condemned" to be stupid, i.e. is it really something bad and wich should be reduced. Some people believe that wars, for example, are stupid by definition because, among other things, it leads to the species destruction, wich of course is unintelligent, if we want to accept that stupidity is the lack of intelligence. I'll risk a definition of stupidity: to me the term means the celebration of ignorance, this is, not only the lack of knowledge but the self-eulogy of it. But is really ignorance a bliss. Some argue that it's. Intelectualism has been attacked since it arose after the Renacemento, however only now it's attacked for a new current of people who don't offer traditions, romanticism, religion or morality as the weapon that should destroy intellectualism or excesive intellectualism. They offer simple stupidity, wich they say is the calm consolation on ignorance, an statification of ignorance in oneself. Many of this people equate, however, stupidity with religion or non-rationalism, wich is a mistake, and thus they tend to accept some religious dogma as salvation or to reject the process of reason willfully.

    So, we should be stupid to be happy (if that's even the goal of an human being). Stupidity causes an state of selfcentration and balance, mostly in one's personality, making people happy of enjoying the present without awareness of the future. Wars are, following this current, a consequence of human intellingence and not of it's stupidity. Man wages war (to take only one example) because he rationalizes everything, because he "thinks too much". To prove their point they use an analogy with natural life. A fish in a barrel "seems happy" he doesn't know where he's, but he feels that he needs to eat, breath, sleep and reproduce, and that's everything he needs. This fish could be swiming in circles inside said barrel without noticing that he's actually swiming in circles, because his memory won't last more than four seconds. This movement won't argue that we should reach such state of "stupidity" because it's impossible, but we should approach it more and more every moment to be happy. It's more, even if we reach that "perfect" state of stupidity we'll never know that we reached it because we'll be completely unaware of our surroundings. So what we should do is ignore as much as we can on purpose to reach that state of balance, of equilibrium.

    The effect of this mass society seems to be unavoidable in most cases, because the representation that we all have of the world is mostly created by what we experience and we experience very little of what we "know" today. This tends to create a fantasy about others in general, standards that are recognized by most people as a social law (if you want), the stereotypes are one of this standards. Should we do as Rousseau proposed in the "Emile" and teach everyone in isolation so he can escape this effects (wich wasn't the purpose of his work of course) or is there a more realistic approach?

    So what do you think: Is there such a thing as stupidity? What's stupidity? Is it a condemnation? Is ignorance a bliss? Is stupidity inherent to human nature or a consequence of his social behavior? Do we've to end or reduce this stupidity or should we embrace it?

    I think that for now I'll say no, even if it's for practical reasons. Political regimes tend to take advantage of the ignorance of the general public because they've the means and the vission to do so. So, even if it's to protect social order, freedoms and coherence I'd say no...
    Last edited by Soulforged; 12-02-2006 at 17:22.
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  2. #2
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stupidity

    I'd say stupidity is commiting an act despite knowing the outcome of doing so, or neglecting the probability of a certain outcome to an unacceptable level. If you don't know the outcome it is just a mistake because no prior knowledge exists; and we are curious creatures.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Senior Member Reenk Roink's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stupidity

    Stupidity is:
    so many different things...
    to so many different faces...
    in so many different ages...
    in so many different places...
    in so many different cases...

  4. #4
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stupidity

    Stupid is as stupid does?


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  5. #5
    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stupidity

    I think stupidity is a derogatory term given to someone that acts without considering facts, history or most probable outcomes. I think doing something “stupid” is always a mistake but a mistake is not always a result of stupidity. Although I think stupidity can be part of a long thought out plan I believe it is most common among quick emotional decisions/reaction and when given an opportunity to think about a situation people usually make the most sensible (or easy) decision.

    Stupid and ignorant are different as stupid ignores information and ignorant is unaware of information.

    As a society we should discourage stupidity (we will never be without it but we should be able to limit it) by encouraging rational thought.
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  6. #6
    Mystic Bard Member Soulforged's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stupidity

    Quote Originally Posted by yesdachi
    I think stupidity is a derogatory term given to someone that acts without considering facts, history or most probable outcomes. I think doing something “stupid” is always a mistake but a mistake is not always a result of stupidity. Although I think stupidity can be part of a long thought out plan I believe it is most common among quick emotional decisions/reaction and when given an opportunity to think about a situation people usually make the most sensible (or easy) decision.
    But do you consider those elements as the only possible for verifiyng stupidity in a given case? What about the results? Acting passionaly could end in some benefits, either personal or general. Acting from your emotions isn't always stupid, and it can be instinctive in some cases. If something stupid is always a mistake, then what's that something? What defines that mistake as stupid? You also could see situations in wich there's absolutely no mistake and we could call that stupid, this is mostly verified in the phenomenum of the masses, people following a movement without thinking twice for example, but a good movement. That can't be considered a mistake. The same happens with a movement that is neither bad nor good.
    Stupid and ignorant are different as stupid ignores information and ignorant is unaware of information.
    But if subject A -stupid- ignores information, then what does it means that he ignores information? Stupid has to be either a superlative of ignorant or another category related to ignorancy in some way, in my opinion.
    As a society we should discourage stupidity (we will never be without it but we should be able to limit it) by encouraging rational thought.
    I agree in principle with you. However rational thought isn't a panacea and it could carry other cases wich we could call stupid, like some well known attitudes of the bureaucracy.

    So you also agree that stupidity is not the road to happiness. Or perhaps happiness is not what the human looks for or should look for? For another discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony
    I'd say stupidity is commiting an act despite knowing the outcome of doing so, or neglecting the probability of a certain outcome to an unacceptable level. If you don't know the outcome it is just a mistake because no prior knowledge exists; and we are curious creatures.
    Yes that takes many cases into considerations. But what kind of act? You only say it: 1- has to be an act 2- the subject has to know the outcome or probable outcome 3- said subject has to neglect the possibility of that act to "unacceptable" levels or act in spite of. This is all subjective this needs some objective element, i.e. wich kind of acts are we talking about, should they be bad by their cause/means/ends, is it important what moral inclination they've, or is it something more technical.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reenk Roink
    Stupidity is:
    so many different things...
    to so many different faces...
    in so many different ages...
    in so many different places...
    in so many different cases...
    Agree on that Reenk. Perhaps there's no possible definition of stupidity, only stupidity. WOW it makes me feel so stupid... However you still may try.
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  7. #7
    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stupidity

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulforged
    But do you consider those elements as the only possible for verifiyng stupidity in a given case? What about the results? Acting passionaly could end in some benefits, either personal or general. Acting from your emotions isn't always stupid, and it can be instinctive in some cases.
    Well, they are the only ones I can think of, nothing else seems to make much sense. I am not saying that every decision needs to be given hours of consideration, especially casual decisions made in a non threatening setting (with friends), and even emotional decisions or out bursts (a declaration of love or anger) are not always stupid, unless you are trying to hide your emotions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulforged
    If something stupid is always a mistake, then what's that something? What defines that mistake as stupid?
    That “something” could be anything done without considering the facts, history and most probable outcomes that results in a bad thing. One could argue that the “something” was a measured risk with an acceptable negative outcome given the slim possibility of an anticipated positive result (lottery). A mistake can generate a positive outcome and a stupid mistake can be acceptable in ones opinion, the phrase “it’s better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all” comes to mind. I suppose that if someone learns from the mistake then they could rationalize the “stupid” away as a learning experience, but if they repeat the same mistake again the “stupid” comes back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulforged
    You also could see situations in wich there's absolutely no mistake and we could call that stupid, this is mostly verified in the phenomenum of the masses, people following a movement without thinking twice for example, but a good movement. That can't be considered a mistake. The same happens with a movement that is neither bad nor good.
    What kind of movement are you thinking about? The only thing I can think of that would be emotional is a riot or something of that nature, any other gathering or organized movement would have some kind of time frame to gather ones composure and would eliminate the emotional reaction. Peer pressure from someone reacting emotionally may trigger an emotional response, but if that lead to a mistake (crime, humiliating yourself, a preventable accident, etc.) the response would have probably been a stupid one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulforged
    But if subject A -stupid- ignores information, then what does it means that he ignores information? Stupid has to be either a superlative of ignorant or another category related to ignorancy in some way, in my opinion.
    I am still of the opinion that stupid and ignorant are different but I guess someone could be stupid for being ignorant of something. I can think of lots of examples of this but I think someone can be ignorant of something and not have it related to a mistake at all, what I am ignorant of could fill a library, but that doesn’t mean every mistake I make is because of my ignorance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulforged
    So you also agree that stupidity is not the road to happiness. Or perhaps happiness is not what the human looks for or should look for? For another discussion.
    IMO Ignorance is every bit as blissful as enlightenment. Someone enjoying the bliss of ignorance is happy that they are enlightened about all the things they know while being oblivious to the things they don’t. What you don’t know can’t hurt you. Ignorance, bliss and enlightenment are all relative terms.
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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stupidity

    Quote Originally Posted by yesdachi
    What you don’t know can’t hurt you.
    The inhabitants of Pompeii beg to disagree.
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  9. #9
    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stupidity

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    The inhabitants of Pompeii beg to disagree.
    No they don’t, they are all dead from being ignorant.
    Peace in Europe will never stay, because I play Medieval II Total War every day. ~YesDachi

  10. #10
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stupidity

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulforged
    An abstract of all those cases is needed in order to discuss it properly, even more considering that Stupidity is valorative and as such has a "shades zone" in wich it's more difficult to say if it's appliable or not. The only works that exist up to this date are anecdotic at best, but Stupidity is an important subject in social science as for today, considering that new terms have appeared in the last century, like "mass society".
    Soul':

    Good point. FYI for future:

    valorative is a hyper-fun word, but most folks -- even in academe -- would probably phrase that "Stupidity is a value-laden term" instead.

    'Anecdotic' is the wrong form for English, use "anecdocal" instead.

    'As for today' would probably come across better to an English reader if re-phrased "at the moment."


    You really have an amazing grasp of the English language. Do you speak it anywhere near as well as your write?
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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    Mystic Bard Member Soulforged's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stupidity

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    You really have an amazing grasp of the English language. Do you speak it anywhere near as well as your write?
    Thanks for the corrections Seamus.

    About the question I declare myself stupid or ignorant... No really, if I write it that well is not because of the influence of my english teacher or my self education on the field, it's because of the experience I had and I continue to have in this forum.
    Quote Originally Posted by yesdachi
    That “something” could be anything done without considering the facts, history and most probable outcomes that results in a bad thing. One could argue that the “something” was a measured risk with an acceptable negative outcome given the slim possibility of an anticipated positive result (lottery). A mistake can generate a positive outcome and a stupid mistake can be acceptable in ones opinion, the phrase “it’s better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all” comes to mind. I suppose that if someone learns from the mistake then they could rationalize the “stupid” away as a learning experience, but if they repeat the same mistake again the “stupid” comes back.
    That's interesting. I also consider lottery to be stupid, but people make a lot of economic decisions that we could consider stupid, perhaps confusing them with irrational. However I don't believe we could safely equate irrationality with stupidity.
    What kind of movement are you thinking about? The only thing I can think of that would be emotional is a riot or something of that nature, any other gathering or organized movement would have some kind of time frame to gather ones composure and would eliminate the emotional reaction. Peer pressure from someone reacting emotionally may trigger an emotional response, but if that lead to a mistake (crime, humiliating yourself, a preventable accident, etc.) the response would have probably been a stupid one.
    You're aware of the raves right, or the Creamfields. People senselessly following a beating. Not my piece of cake, perhaps someone loves electronic music, not me. However as an example of the mass society phenomenum it fits perfectly.
    I am still of the opinion that stupid and ignorant are different but I guess someone could be stupid for being ignorant of something. I can think of lots of examples of this but I think someone can be ignorant of something and not have it related to a mistake at all, what I am ignorant of could fill a library, but that doesn’t mean every mistake I make is because of my ignorance.
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    Default Re: Stupidity

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    Soul':

    'Anecdotic' is the wrong form for English, use "anecdocal" instead.
    Now I may come off as an ass, but, Seamus, is that a typo ? Didn't you mean anecdotal ?
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  13. #13
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stupidity

    Quote Originally Posted by Blodrast
    Now I may come off as an ass, but, Seamus, is that a typo ? Didn't you mean anecdotal ?
    You are quite right. My brain works better than my fingers when it comes to vocabulary.
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  14. #14
    Mystic Bard Member Soulforged's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stupidity

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    You really have an amazing grasp of the English language. Do you speak it anywhere near as well as your write?
    Thanks for the corrections Seamus.

    About the question I declare myself stupid or ignorant... No really, if I write it that well is not because of the influence of my english teacher or my self education on the field, it's because of the experience I had and I continue to have in this forum. But I don't speak it as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by yesdachi
    That “something” could be anything done without considering the facts, history and most probable outcomes that results in a bad thing. One could argue that the “something” was a measured risk with an acceptable negative outcome given the slim possibility of an anticipated positive result (lottery). A mistake can generate a positive outcome and a stupid mistake can be acceptable in ones opinion, the phrase “it’s better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all” comes to mind. I suppose that if someone learns from the mistake then they could rationalize the “stupid” away as a learning experience, but if they repeat the same mistake again the “stupid” comes back.
    That's interesting. I also consider lottery to be stupid, but people make a lot of economic decisions that we could consider stupid, perhaps confusing them with irrational. However I don't believe we could safely equate irrationality with stupidity.
    What kind of movement are you thinking about? The only thing I can think of that would be emotional is a riot or something of that nature, any other gathering or organized movement would have some kind of time frame to gather ones composure and would eliminate the emotional reaction. Peer pressure from someone reacting emotionally may trigger an emotional response, but if that lead to a mistake (crime, humiliating yourself, a preventable accident, etc.) the response would have probably been a stupid one.
    You're aware of the raves right, or the Creamfields. People senselessly following a beating. Not my piece of cake, perhaps someone loves electronic music, not me. However as an example of the mass society phenomenum it fits perfectly.
    I am still of the opinion that stupid and ignorant are different but I guess someone could be stupid for being ignorant of something. I can think of lots of examples of this but I think someone can be ignorant of something and not have it related to a mistake at all, what I am ignorant of could fill a library, but that doesn’t mean every mistake I make is because of my ignorance.
    I meant it more in the context of my definition. One thing is to be ignorant, all people are ignorant of something, but another thing is to celebrate that ignorancy. That's what I call an stupid person, however it's more difficult to establish stupid things, perhaps there's not any stupid things only stupid people.
    IMO Ignorance is every bit as blissful as enlightenment. Someone enjoying the bliss of ignorance is happy that they are enlightened about all the things they know while being oblivious to the things they don’t. What you don’t know can’t hurt you. Ignorance, bliss and enlightenment are all relative terms.
    Perhaps it's mate . But do you agree with the extreme position I briefly exposed in my first post? We've to be more ignorant/stupid or more intelligent?
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    Honorary Argentinian Senior Member Gyroball Champion, Karts Champion Caius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stupidity

    You can declare yourself stupid, but you arent stupid.
    Stupyidity is a action who someone makes, and that action doesnt have common sense




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  16. #16
    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stupidity

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulforged
    That's interesting. I also consider lottery to be stupid, but people make a lot of economic decisions that we could consider stupid, perhaps confusing them with irrational. However I don't believe we could safely equate irrationality with stupidity.
    I think they are linked as often as they are not.

    You're aware of the raves right, or the Creamfields. People senselessly following a beating. Not my piece of cake, perhaps someone loves electronic music, not me. However as an example of the mass society phenomenum it fits perfectly.
    I am aware but like you it is not my piece of cake either so I lack insight into the experience. Seems like a good example of a mass society phenomenon but on a smaller scale, how many people really fit in a club.

    I meant it more in the context of my definition. One thing is to be ignorant, all people are ignorant of something, but another thing is to celebrate that ignorancy. That's what I call an stupid person, however it's more difficult to establish stupid things, perhaps there's not any stupid things only stupid people.
    That makes sense to me.

    Perhaps it's mate . But do you agree with the extreme position I briefly exposed in my first post? We've to be more ignorant/stupid or more intelligent?
    Oh, I think we should all try and be as knowledgeable as we reasonably can in whatever field of work we are in or in whatever interests we have. A knowledgeable and diverse society should make less stupid mistakes if it takes the time to consider the facts, history and probable outcomes. That said I don’t think everyone needs to know everything about everything as long as someone does and can be called upon when needed, this could allow others to be comfortable knowing everything they are not in charge of or knowledgeable of is taken care of while they are blissfully ignorant of the details. Stupid is never good but I think ignorance, bliss and knowledge can all sleep in the same bed.
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