The Will of the Senate - Out of character thread V

[econ21]

This is the current out of character thread for the Will of the Senate. Please use this thread for all out of character discussion and keep the others free for role-play and stories.

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The Civil War - overview

Civil war has broken out in the Republic, between the Senate and and the Consul. I will be playing out the war on the campaign map, according to orders received from players about what they want their avatars to do. I will try to delay battle on the campaign map for a while to allow forces to be amassed.

I will be working from the latest savegame in the uploader:
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/250-spr-Tib3.zip

Urgent - if you have not already done so, please give me any orders you have for the first two turns and any general directions for your character (e.g. they want to march on Rome or kill Numerius or whatever).

Try to check the Throne room for updates every day just in case there is something that requires your attention.

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Battle mechanics

When rival avatars meet, a battle will be fought in a manner to be mutually agreed by the participants. It could be multiplayer; it could be via orders to an umpire (I volunteer); it could be by setting up a matching AI vs AI battle; or it could be by "mirrored" battles against the AI (whoever does better, wins). Different methods could be used for different battles, according to the preferences of those directly involved.

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Campaign mechanics

I don't want to get bogged down in rules and mechanics, but a few pointers to guide your orders:

1) Only Italy has significant troop building facilities. Whoever controls it, should ultimately win.

2) Loyalty of armies not under avatars will be determined by some random mechanic modified by the influence and proximity of rival generals. Blood ties will also come into play.

3) Control of fleets will be important, especially for those in Afrika. Loyalty of fleets will be determined similarly to loyalty of armies but I will try to make sure no one is stranded and unable to have at least a chance of getting to Italy.

4) The war will be over when all generals on one side are dead or surrender.

5) This PBM may live on after the war, so if you want to build bridges for a future life for your character (especially if they seem to be on the losing side) feel free to do so.

6) Obviously, strength of armies on the campaign map will be reflected in however battles are decided - they won't necessarily be fair fights. However, I will try to keep things at least initially balanced, so we get a "good war".

7) If I do not receive directions or orders, I will generally leave your avatar inactive unless there is some extremely obvious move he should make (e.g. flee a stronger enemy or get more men). Make sure you tell me if you want your character to be inactive (e.g. he's staying neutral for a while).

8) To keep things simple, and focussed on the players, only player generals (and admirals) can be ordered to move. I will move loyal non-player generals to join with player generals if they are within a turn's reach. The exception to this is Quintus Naevius, who Lucjan persuaded me to let him control. At the time, it looked like he might be hopelessly outnumbered after the impeachment, so I agreed. It does seem to balance things up pretty well.

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Story-telling and role-playing

Feel free to contribute in-character write-ups to the Civil war stories thread. To make sure things match up with what I am doing on the campaign map, you could PM me with a sketch of what you plan.

I will play along with any juicy plot twists you would like your character to be involved with.

But make sure you do not put words into another player's character's mouth or kill them out of battle without their consent!


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EDIT: I'm going to keep editing this post with additional information, additions being marked in italics. I've made an initial assignment of non-player generals (NPG) to factions in the Civil War Stories thread. The spoiler gives the gory details, but as I said, I don't want to get into mechanics too much.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

If any NPG was in a turn's reach of a player general, they took a test of allegiance. Rolled a six sided dice. 1 = Consular, 6 = Senate.

Modified by (Senate influence - Consular influence +/- Blood tie)/2
where influence is that of any player general within one turn's reach or 1/2 influence if within two turns reach.
Blood tie is a 10 point modifier for if the NPG has a father or son in one faction.

A roll of "1" or "6" stands, regardless of modifiers.

[Lucjan]

This is going to be interesting. The division of players with legions is pretty good.

New Republicans (6)- Servius Aemilius, Manius Coruncanius, Quintus Libo, Quintus Naevius, Oppius Aemilius, Flavius Pacuvius

The Old Senate (5)- Numerious Aureolus, Appius Barbetus, Tiberius Coruncanius, Lucius Aemilius, Marcellus Aemilius

[GeneralHankerchief]

Hmm, seems as if look of the Old Senate fighters is a mixed blessing. On one hand, we have the two Old Farts of the Republic, Lucius and Tiberius, who have massive command/influence. On the other hand, they could both decide to keel over and die of natural causes at the wrong time.

Best of luck to everybody.

[TinCow]

The Library has been updated with all important information. I haven't bothered with the general family tree or the multi-shot Roman territorial bit, since they seem irrelevant at this point.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Hmm, seems as if look of the Old Senate fighters is a mixed blessing. On one hand, we have the two Old Farts of the Republic, Lucius and Tiberius, who have massive command/influence. On the other hand, they could both decide to keel over and die of natural causes at the wrong time.
Best of luck to everybody.

I'm also worried about death due to age, but on the other hand I and Tiberius have some serious command skill.

EDIT :

Bummer about the pirates, Wonderland.
Econ21, it would be nice if the senate would command some ships. All the fleets seem to be assigned to Servius.

[Lucjan]

Actually...fleets seem to have swung like this.

New Republic
Servius (fleet at Narbo)
Oppius (fleet at Tingi)

Senate
Marcellus (Fleet south of Sicily)


Fleet near Asia Minor is most likely still up in the air. They're a new fleet, but also the smallest and with no relations with any of the generals yet, probably waiting to see the initial victor in Asia Minor before making any decisions. That's just my take on the situation though, Econ is the one in charge of determining actual AI loyalties.

[Mount Suribachi]

Simon, just a thought about recruitment of troops, in that, do we really want to do it? It just makes things more messy and complicated. I would be much more in favour of a fight were everyone has their own legions, and thats it. Last one standing wins!

[econ21]

I think recruitment adds something - it means that who controls Rome really matters, as it should historically. Plus the starting armies - detailed in the jpg - were somewhat arbitrary. Recruitment should allow generals to get close to a full stack, if there are mercs available or they break into Italy.

On the fleets, I did the loyalty test thing I put in the spoiler and as you might expect, it turned out the fleets were loyal to the nearest influential general - basically west went Consular and east went Senate.

I'm going to play more tonight - still have not finished the first turn. I may not answer every PM, as I was finding I spent more time answering than playing, but I will read them.

[Braden]

@ TinCow,

Is that some veiled suggestion in the Library? (i.e. updating "my" Manius's picture with Manius the Mad's)



Funny though....

[TinCow]

Sorry, I didn't notice I had posted the wrong one. Fixed now.

[Dutch_guy]

Well, GeneralH, that's one heck of story you wrote !

Good job, really.

[econ21]

A quick out of character update on the situation at the end of the first turn of the civil war. This is mainly for story writing purposes - I don't feel I need orders for turn 2 as nothing too dramatic has happened yet. The main potential action in turn 2 would be Numerius vs Manius, and I suspect Numerius may wimp out on that (I don't want to stop the flow of the war by arranging a battle so quickly).

I am going to focus on the player generals (Qunitus Naevius is an honorary one), as other generals generally do not move independently (except to join a player's army) - with a couple of exceptions (*).


In Iberia and Gaul

Servius and *Quintus Naevius started with no movement points left.

Nor did Quintus Libo who was attacked on a ford by a rock hard Iberian army, which he trounced with significant losses (killed 758, lost 162 but due to churigeons has 916 men left from 1005). I fought this manually as again, I want the war to gather some pace before we stop.


Italy

Luca Mamillus gathered a bunch of Gauls and marched towards Bononia.


Thrace and Greece

Tiberius extracted himself from besieging the Thracian town but had to withdraw south.

The best elements of Lucius's force had no movement points left so he stayed put, feuding with his tribune.

Galerius Vatinius has marched a little distance south.

Cnaeus Caprius has mustered an army near modern day Albania.

Decius Laevinus is preparing to board a ship at Apollonia.


Anatolia

Numerius and Appius Barbatus gathered mercenaries and started to approach each other.

Manius has met up with his son at Ancrya. His *son has an army of Gauls and I am going to allow him to move adjacent to Manius to simulate a supra-Consular sized army.

Secundus Salvius is heading for the straits alone.


Afrika

Marcellus left a couple of Numidian skirmishers to take Lepcis Magna and smashed a rebel force blocking the coastal road to Thapsus. Admiral Appius has met up with him.

Flavius Pacuvius is heading north-east to Carthage.

Oppius has borded a nearby fleet.

[econ21]

OK, I got through another turn - almost - but could not avoid a battle between us. The civil war stories thread explains why.

The battle is a four way - Numerius + Appius vs Manius + his son. I make it 2457 vs 2488, with no clear advantage in quality to either side that I can make out.

So, Braden, Tamur and I have to figure out how we are going to resolve this:

Option 1: Some variant of multiplayer. We could even hack the EDU file to get units that exactly match those in the battle. Or, given that it seems a "fair" fight, we could just have some equal abstract army (my preference would be 4 identical "historical" Consular armies as laid down in the FAQ) - or One Consular + one Praetorian a side.
Pros: most exciting option; could be a laugh; player MP skill will have some role.
Cons: might be tricky to pull off in practical tems; player MP skill will be paramount (could be horribly embarassing for some of us)


Option 2: Custom battle, AI vs AI. This is my preferred option. Again, I could hack the EDU to exactly replicate the armies. Then, I could set up a 5 way battle (2 vs 2 + me controlling only 1 unit and acting as an observer). I could take screenshots of the battle and write it up in character. This is close to what I did to get the write-up of Publius at the Masilia ford:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...9&postcount=22
Pros: Fairly quick and easy; should produce a good battle report; would be interesting to see how the fates deal with our characters.
Cons:: Non-interactive; and our skill as players has no impact on the outcome.


Option 3: A mirrored custom battle, each of us vs the AI. The outcome could be the average result.
Pros: Fairly quick and easy; our skill as SP players will have an impact.
Cons: Harder to produce a coherent story (as we are averaging too stories)


Option 4: A refereed "tabletop" style battle. We give orders to a third party, they resolve the battle based on the orders and some rules or judgements about combat resolution.
Pros: Interactive; not as scarey as MP
Cons: trusting our fate in a referee; could take a lot of time to resolve; with the number of units involved, both giving orders and refereeing is going to be a problem (and, as a participant, I can't help out here).


Braden and Tamur - what's your order of preference among the four options above?

[GeneralHankerchief]

econ, would you mind posting the latest savegame? I think we all want to see how the positions have changed.

EDIT: Thanks, Dutch_guy. If it sways certain Senators then even better.

[Dooz]

Oo, I'm liking option 2. That sounds fun, which may sound weird given we don't actually do anything, but I think it's the most practical and fair one out of anything else. If votes count, mine goes for that one .

[econ21]

OK, the latest savegame is here:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/250-sum-end.zip

Things may start to get more tactical now, as armies get withing striking range of each other. But given that we will be fighting some battles, which will take time to work out logistically, there should be more time to give your orders.

I think I have the basic orders I need from everyone to move them into action, but PM me if you have any changes or want to add any nuances based on the savegame.

But bear in mind you can only give orders for your avatar and his army (and any fleets). If you have more than 20 units, you can drag a second stack behind you to simulate a massive combined force. But you cannot give orders to other generals or unled units. I am playing it that unled units can be "picked up" by passing player generals and that other generals act in simple ways (usually marching to the sound of the guns) if they pass a loyalty test.

We may have sucked the map dry of mercenaries for now, so they could be less of an issue. I am keeping track of the loyalty of the Italian troop-producing towns. Appius Egnatius is recruiting for the Consul. The settlements Luca and Decius take are recruiting for the Senate. With the approach of Luca, Rome has declared for the Senate.

[Avicenna]

Mmm.. I get my own mini-fleet! Is Luca Mamilius in the same faction as me?

[econ21]

Mmm.. I get my own mini-fleet!

Yes, of one ship! (You could ask me to build you more, though - might be an idea if you need to flee Italy.)

Is Luca Mamilius in the same faction as me?

Yes, you are best mates. IIRC, he's in Arretium and you in Capua - you were both racing for Rome. He has collected a mob of Gallic mercenaries (our Gallic campaigns have rather prejudiced me against these guys). You picked up a few Italian mercs. You are now desperately scrambling to rally true Romans to the flag before Servius lands with a Consular-sized Consular army.

Oo, I'm liking option 2. That sounds fun, which may sound weird given we don't actually do anything, but I think it's the most practical and fair one out of anything else. If votes count, mine goes for that one.

I agree completely. I guess it's basically an autoresolve but with screenshots.

[Dutch_guy]

EDIT: Thanks, Dutch_guy. If it sways certain Senators then even better.

You gotta be kidding me, I have elephants you know

[SwordsMaster]

Mwhahaa! Rome is ours!

[econ21]

Let's keep the Civil War stories thread clear of out of character stuff.

I am deleting the out of character stuff and putting it here:

(OOC - Umm..excuse me swordmaster? Accusing Servius of ordering poisoning assassinations and burning down other senators estates? I can't agree with this at all, it's not in Servius's nature and such an order would never be given. I have to ask that these things be changed. You can't speak or make actions for another player's character no matter how you or your character may feel about the situation. Servius may now be at war with the senate, but he has never and would never order assassinations like this. On the contrary he's taken steps to protect families of his friends who requested it, fearing they might be targeted this way. I have to ask that you not presume to make actions for my character and change your story to remove these acts.)

Swordsmaster may be you can change your wording to refer to the Consul's faction rather than the Consul personally? I think there will be rogue (or rougher - e.g. Cnaeus) elements on both sides (ask Vladimir Putin, or may be better not ). The Senate faction players did not cry foul when Decius Curtius planned to butcher Manius's family on their behalf.

I didn't mean it offensively, and I didn't make your character order the assassination, I just said that the slave said you did. Anyway, I have a nice little plot in mind that I will (hopefully) develop if i have the time.

As of the Consul's faction.... I just couldn't think of a better sounding sinonymous. Consul's faction sounds very artificial, but if someone makes up some other name, like nationalists, or imperialists, or something along the lines, I'll be happy to change it. Consulists just sounds wrong.

[Braden]

Ok, Econ21,

Personally, I hate leaving anything to the AI so "to me" option one is my least preferred.

I'm ok with using a full-on MP battle (with you as observer), although having ZERO experience and the fact we havent tested RTR on this.

I'm ok with this option as it means most hands on control from me - some of my single player results are due to some "unusual" moves I sometimes employ which an AI just would not replicate.

Option three I feel is the worse option - would it be a matter of who tallies up the most AI casualties?

Option Four - at this time, and not knowing how to conduct a MP battle, is my favoured and I do trust you Econ as a Ref for this. However, if it was to be truly interactive, we'd have to agree a time space just like a normal MP wouldn't we so both players had the chance to issue and change orders on the fly?

[econ21]

OK, so Braden, I take it your preference ordering is:

4>2>3>1

Is that right?

I guess mine is:

1>4>3>2

I recall Tamur expressed interest in the umpired game, so let's work on that assumption.

After giving it some thought, I think we should follow the KISS approach - keep it simple stupid. So, I propose the following:


To resolve the battle

1. I will umpire the battle but not participate. Tamur will act as both Numerius and Appius, controlling all the Senate forces. Braden will control all the Consular ones. (No other players should advise them or communicate with them during the battle.)

2. I have cut and paste all the icons of the units onto a word document.http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/ancrya.zip
Each player should copy the icons of their units into Microsoft Paint and arrange them in his order of battle. They will then save the file, zip it and upload it. I will put the two together to show the intial battle deployment and upload it.

3. We will abstract from terrain - it's a level playing field. Fine viisibility and weather. Fatigue will be a factor though - best keep a fresh reserve for late day.

4. There will then be 6 turns:
- advance to contact (1) - Wed
- mid-morning (2) - Th
- late morning (3) - Fri
- early afternoon (4) - Sat
- late afternoon (5) - Sun
- evening (6) - Mon
At the start of each turn, each player will use Paint to mark his planned maneouvres and send me any accompanying notes.

5. Players should act like historical armies and not try to micro-manage too much. Orders may get lost and things may slip up. The position of the 4 generals will be particularly important in determining the outcome of any fine maneouvring - if he is far away or locked in combat, he may not be able to control events. (Best avoid the RTW bad habit of using your general as a spearhead.)

6. I will put the orders together. Execution of movement will be simultaneous, so I will work out the result of any clashes arising based on my judgement - informed by common sense, unit stats, history and experience of RTRPE. I will upload an end-turn file showing the state of play together with a brief narrative courtesy of my grad student Jack.

7. We will play out one turn per day of real life. We will have Monday to discuss these proposals and agree procedures. Send me your deployments by Tuesday night and then we will try to get through a turn a day, finishing a week on Monday. I know weekends can be a problem, but we can deal with that if you give me notice.

8. The battle will be decisive. The losers will all be killed or surrender. The winners will take casualties on the campaign map (losing whole units) I deem reasonable given the battle.


Meanwhile on the campaign map, the show goes on

In order not to hold up the entire Civil War, I propose that Manius, Numerius, Appius and Manius's son be moved on the campaign map as a "blob" toward Rome. When we do finally resolve the battle, I will remove the defeated two stacks and the victor's casualties so that only one half of the blob (Senate or Consular) reaches Rome. Is this ok, Braden? Certainly Numerius would have dashed for Rome after beating Manius and I assume vice-versa. Given the distances, I suspect the Civil War will be resolved before the Easterners get to Rome.

When we get to a more central battle, the blob mechanic would not be sensible. But with such a battle, the participants might prefer a quicker way of resolving the battle or we might be happy to wait a week for the result.

Personally, I think MP battles or AI vs AI custom battles would be best if we end up having a lot of them. But given Braden and Tamur favoured the umpired mechanic, and this is the one and only civil war battle that at least one of them will fight, I am happy to give it a try.

[Tamur]

Just a end-of-weekend note to say I've read through the rules you outlined.

I agree that this should not become the standard way to resolve the battles, since it will take a week or so. Then again, if someone gets "knocked out" they could act as judge and so we would run multiple battles simultaneously if it's something people are interested in.

At any rate, what you've outlined sounds good. I will take apart that zip file and get deployment to you sometime tomorrow (Monday).

Tamur *shaking in his boots at having to fight a seasoned table-top gamer!*

[Mount Suribachi]

Info on how to go about MP with RTR

http://forums.totalrealism.net/index...howtopic=23940

[econ21]

That post does not sound too promising, Mount - not least because they are talking about RTR Gold rather than Platinum. I think we should not consider MP battles as an option unless two of us have tried it out successfully in a test. (I don't want to hold up the campaign for nothing.)

If we have a really climactic battle, like that going on at Ancrya, then the umpired game is probably worth the trouble.

For smaller or one-sided affairs, I am inclined to go for AI vs AI. At least, it will be quick and fair.

I am open to MP battles but only if the participants can quickly test them first.

Tamur and Braden - if you both can get me deployment orders by tonight, we can advance the schedule by a day.

[Mount Suribachi]

GAH! I've got a horrible feeling I need to reinstall RTR......

I just can't get the game to start. No matter how I try - shortcut, start menu, insert CD - it won't boot up. CD just spins round for a bit, but no game. Occasionally, maybe 1 in 10, it will go. But right now, no game.

I do wonder if this is related to using the BI exe, as it seems to have happened since I put that in, but not straight away....

[Lucjan]

Argh...and at such an inoppertune time. I believe I have links for all the necessary downloads if you do need to reinstall it.

[econ21]

I'm getting an alarming black screen of death crash after exiting RTRPE. I thought it was a problem with RTW, but then loaded the Thracian vanilla PBM save and coul exit fine. Maybe this campaign is trying to tell us something?!

[Mount Suribachi]

Argh...and at such an inoppertune time. I believe I have links for all the necessary downloads if you do need to reinstall it.

Thanks, but I have most of the files saved my hard drive. Its the several hour install process I can't face.....

Wisdom rallied in a protected glade. Stupidity assailed the lines again, but was repulsed