Unit Combat and Charging; Intuition vs. Testing vs. Animation

[dopp]

1.
The point is not loose formation, its walking into pikes.
Pikes are longer so if you charge them your own weight and speed make the pike very powerful. If uyou only walk into pikes the pikes dont get this bonus of your own speed and weight so the pikes cant do much against your armour because pikemen dont make same power on their own.

That's exactly my point about using pikemen as the target. Braced pikes reflect the charge bonus of the attacker back onto himself. Therefore, if a knight with charge 8 runs into a pikeman, the pikeman gets the +8 to his attack instead of the knight. If you walk the knights in, however, this bonus does not apply. The pikes will still have a reach advantage, but as soon as the knights either push past the pikes or lap around then the pikemen are at a huge disadvantage. They have no shields, mediocre attack and very poor defense skill, so the knights usually win out on raw stats despite being outnumbered. It's a bit of an exploit I guess to use knights in this way, but the pikes have served their purpose regardless: they stopped the knights from charging. The pikemen may not beat the knights in the melee (maybe their melee stats should be tweaked higher or their formation improved so that they don't drop their pikes so easily) but now you can send in the halberdiers to help out.

Historically, it WAS just about possible for cavalry to defeat spear/pike/bayonet units if they could break into their formation. Sometimes this happened by chance (the dying horse at Quatre Bras), sometimes by firepower (using pistols or galloper guns to blast holes in the lines) and sometimes through sheer determination (fighting their way past or around the pikes). I'm not too worried if horsemen can beat pikemen under the right conditions. If those conditions are too easy to achieve however, then maybe the pikes need a little buff.

[econ21]

If you walk the knights in, however, this bonus does not apply. The pikes will still have a reach advantage, but as soon as the knights either push past the pikes or lap around then the pikemen are at a huge disadvantage.

Interesting. When MTW came out there was a long thread here called the "myth of the cavalry charge". In it, someone quoted an account of a battle between, IIRC, French knights and Flemish pikemen (Courtrai?) where what happened sounded rather like what you are describing. The point of the quote was to show that apparently the mounted knights did slug it out for some time and only gradually lost (ie it was not the headlong charge into pointy sticks, insta-death you can get in M2TW). So what you are talking about does not sound too ahistorical.

I guess the problem in game is that it may be too easy to disrupt the pikemen. I think it is fine to force a switch to swords for a flank or rear attack, and if buckler men etc get in among the formation. But in a face to face confrontation with near stationary knights, it does not seem very likely. Certainly in RTW, I found cavalry causes pikemen to switch to swords too easily. I have not had that enough experience to comment about M2TW (only played the pikeless English). Cavalry are certainly more fragile than in RTW, which should reduce the problem if it exists.

[JeffBag]

Yes, I think its Courtrai, the Battle of the Golden Spurs.

Cavalry does seem more fragile compared to RTW, but the mass of cavalry seems to be in tens of tons or something, they push people around as if they were ragdolls, and they can even push all the way through a formation of men lined 6 deep.

Another thing I notice is that when cavalry charge in, and kill the first two row of an infantry line, the second row of cavalry is still galloping on the spot, held back by the first row of cavalry. Therefore, when the first row die, the second row of cavalry moves at full speed, with zero acceleration time, to kill another two rows of infantry. This is especially apparent with spearmen, since the first row dies in the charge, killing two rows of spears, the second row of horses immediately pushes up killing another two rows of spears, and then the third row of horses when the second die. The entire unit should stop charging once the first row hits, if not the second row would be lancing through all the horses infront in real life?

[dopp]

I agree that pikemen drop their pikes way too easily. It may be due to the unit cohesion bug or some other bug as the phalangites in RTW did not suffer from this as much. Knights of course should sometimes be able to push their way in and break up the formation (especially if they are fighting green troops or if the pikes were caught reforming), but at present they do so too much.

Historically, cavalry vs infantry encounters were primarily psychological. "Shock tactics" seem to be mostly myth. Despite the awesome power of the couched-lance charge, its purpose was to scare the infantry off rather than annihilate 80% of the unit on impact like we have in M2TW. Charging knights could easily scare off most infantry without making contact at all. Even many centuries later at Waterloo, hardened British regulars, drilled and disciplined though they were, found it difficult not to run away from the charge of cuirassiers, who carried no lances and wore much less armor. Once the infantry started fleeing, the cavalry could of course simply ride in and skewer them all. Not even the need to cross weapons, although of course infantry that could not get away fast enough would be run through or ridden down.

Likewise, if the infantry stood firm or presented the charging cavalry with some kind of obstacle, the horsemen would slow and the charge would lose momentum. Pike/bayonet formations were designed not to skewer reckless cavalry, but to dissuade the cavalry from charging home and give the musketeers more time to reload shoot them up. If the cavalry was truly determined to engage then they would stop the charge, trot up to the pikes and start poking ineffectually with their lances or attempt to push their way past the pikes. This was usually very disadvantageous to the knights, because they were always outnumbered 4 to 1 on the same frontage by the infantry. Volley fire could also break up charges by turning the cavalry's front rank into a barrier of corpses thick enough to force the rest to slow or divert around. Unlike in computer games, dead bodies are not just there for show and can actually hinder movement on the battlefield. Note there IS one well-known possible example of cavalry getting skewered while charging infantry. This is of course the French knights at Agincourt charging the longbowmen and impaling themselves on the stakes. This might be because the bowmen stood IN FRONT of the stakes and gave way at the last moment, leaving the horsemen no time or room to stop.

Of course if M2TW implemented cavalry charges "historically" then we would end up with a really boring game. Either the infantry would rout before impact (like in RTW) and the cavalry auto-win, or the infantry would stand firm, the charge would stop short, and everyone goes home. So we get massive impacts, lots of blood, swirling melees and heaps of decorative corpses. A lot more fun.