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Thread: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

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    Member Member IRONxMortlock's Avatar
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    Default Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

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    Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'
    mosque
    Engaging the Muslim community should be "at the heart of security policy"
    British Muslims are being driven into the arms of violent extremists by official attempts to engage with them after the July 7 bombs, a study claims.

    Policies since the attacks in London have "driven a wedge" between Muslims and the wider community rather than isolate extremists, the report says.

    The study, by think tank Demos, accused ministers of failing to engage Muslims over British foreign policy in Iraq.

    It called for "community relations to be at the heart of security policy".

    'Resentment and alienation'

    The report - partly funded by the Department for Communities and Local Government - described attempts to involve Muslims in the policy-making process as "rushed, conducted on the government's terms, failing to break away from 'the usual suspects', and with little follow through".

    Liberal Democrat Shadow Home Secretary, Nick Clegg MP, said: "There is little to be gained in the long term by providing our security and police services with extra powers to tackle terrorism if, at the same time, the conditions for ever-deeper radicalisation are not being addressed with equal vigour."

    The report stated: "In the meeting rooms of Whitehall, ministers were assuring Muslim leaders of the need for partnership, but in press briefings they were talking of the need for Muslims to 'get serious' about terrorism, spy on their children, and put up with inconveniences in the greater good of national security."

    It also said that the government' s actions were breeding "resentment and alienation" among Muslims and "playing into the hands of the extremists".

    "By viewing Muslims as a single interest group the government has failed to draw a clear enough distinction between angry Muslim opinion and those that would seek to inflict violence and terror," it added.

    "The result is that rather than being isolated, extremists are able to attract support from communities cut adrift from mainstream British society."

    The report, to be published on Monday, also said that the Foreign Office, Department for International Development and Ministry of Defence needed to increase the number of staff dedicated to "outreach" with minority communities.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6205050.stm

    I'm almost cynical enough to believe that this was the intention all along.
    and New Zealand.

  2. #2
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    Policies drive a wedge huh, I'd say the attacks do a better job at that. Have yet to see an anti-terror demonstration, all I see are these crazy-eyed guys holding signs with poetic expressions such as death to all infidels and behead all disbelievers. Maybe I am just not very receptive for their way of doing public relations and don't see the cry for attention and genuine concern for their community.

    I'd rather see this --->

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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    Yes, we all know the Dutch have a thing for burning mosques thank you.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    Yes, we all know the Dutch have a thing for burning mosques thank you.
    You are quite welcome, churches went down as well by the way, let me guess, you didn't know that. That was of course a reaction on the reaction on the way we reacted when we reacted on the reaction.

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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    Knew that'd ruffle some feathers.

    Anyway, I assume you didn't notice how your initial commentary fitted pretty much exactly the criteria of what the British authorities were accused of in the OP article...?
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    Knew that'd ruffle some feathers.
    It's called baiting technically, I don't mind, but what is it with these senior members lately.

    About article, just the usual cultivation of victimhood. They aren't victims. Problems in the Netherlands, problems in England, problems in France, problems in Belgium, problems in Germany, all desperatily trying to figure out what they are doing wrong, it would make a lot more sense to see what all these countries with all vastly different aproaches towards the immigration-issues have in common. Guess what.

  7. #7
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    If the answer to your rhetorical question is indeed "immigrants" (or "Muslim immigrants") as I suspect, I'm going to have to push the button that makes a loud *BREEEEP* noise and ask if the wheel hasn't been invented already.

    If it isn't, do feel free to extrapolate.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    Congrats, you have won. Here goes,


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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony
    Congrats, you have won. Here goes,

    Fragony you always have the best in home appliances don't you? You're they guy with the waterfall shower right?

    (in other words, I don't understand )


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
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  10. #10
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    Ah teh watchman got the correct answer, and he won a fridge because never before did a star shine brighter.

  11. #11
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    Did you have anything else to offer than the novel observation that immigrant problems require the presence of immigrants to develop, Sherlock ?

    Such as possible solutions ? I'm reading some hints between the lines here, and I don't think I much like them. All the more given what I know of your stance in these matters from before.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  12. #12
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    Such as possible solutions ?
    There is no other solution then time, and the only working solution I could never support, heck if I prefered a completily muslim-free crowd I'd visit more multicultural initiatives. But we could at least stop trying to find the blame within our policies, and completily disregarding the religious aspect of the problems, it's not social exclusion, it's not poverty, it's not Palestina, it's the nature of the Islam we have in Europe. Deal with that instead of pushing money into all sorts of useless organisations, and stop useless discussions about burka's and other nonsense.

  13. #13
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    And here all the history I've read for the last one and half decades has strongly suggested religious trouble has a funny tendency to only really start turning up if there's major issues on the socioeconomical side first...

    Tolerance seems to be something of a luxury good, y' see. When things are bad people don't seem to be able to afford it anymore.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  14. #14
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    Might want to explain why they radicalise in Sweden and Denmark as well, just like the netherlands filthy rich countries. It's all just an excuse. They say that Islam is peace, I think what they mean is that peace is islam, we simply cannot meet their demands.

    Gilles Kepel has written an excellent book on the rise of the policical islam, 'Jihad, trial of the political Islam'. It doesn't cover europe, but at least it provides some insight in their way of thinking.
    Last edited by Fragony; 12-04-2006 at 17:57.

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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    'Cause Sweden and Denmark aren't doing quite as well as you seem to think. I'm currently reading studies of their internal politics for an uni test, trust me on this. Back in the day the Swedes didn't quite know how to handle Finnish immigrants properly and without friction, and there's a fair few rank xenophobe assholes in the Danish gov't at the moment (the Mohammed cartoon furor a while ago largely stemmed from this little detail). Not that we Finns are doing much better at the moment.

    And everyone everywhere is having serious trouble getting their society and economy fitted to the brave new global economy obsessed with short-term profit without massive socioeconomical collateral damage. Three guesses how much goodwill that leaves for integrating immigrants from half the continent away amongst the "deep ranks" of the populace - the working and middle classes, never the paragons of open-mindedness to begin with - whose situations are the worst threatened by both the structural shifts and competition from these selfsame immigrants ? Immigrants feeling left out, alienated and ostracized (nigh without exception quite justifiably too) then duly return the resentement and are that much more likely to turn inwards, which is never a good thing, and the spiral goes on.

    Hardly a new thing though. You read studies of developements centuries back, and it's always when it's famine and poverty and depression and war when people start burning witches and getting all xenophobic. When things are good, Hell, they often welcome the foreigners with open arms and usually leave even the Jews in peace...

    It's not Islam that's the problem, any more than Christianity. It's the societies themselves being in trouble that spawns the causal chains resulting in the problem.
    Last edited by Watchman; 12-04-2006 at 18:12.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    It's not us holding them back, their isolation is their own choice. I am not very willing to take the blame for a group of people that just don't want to fit in. The usual reaction of western country's to problems is investigating what we should do, when we aren't even the problem. The islam is the problem, it's not just a religion but also a political movement that is incompatible with our way of living, there is no reflection and their is no room for critisism of any kind, it's basicly our existance (and succes) that offends them.

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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    Xenophobic BS, that.

    Or have you forgotten the Turkish Gastarbeiter in Germany since what, the Seventies ? Sure wasn't them who had severe attitude issues unconductive to integration, far as I know... I'm pretty sure the Pakistanis and others in the UK and various colonials in France since even earlier curiously failed to be a problem before, oh, around the Nineties depression and the kicking-and-screaming neolib economic policies since then, too.

    Plus there's been a Muslim minority in Finland for round two centuries without a hitch. Heck, they even joined in on despising the Somalis in the Nineties - now that's naturalized...
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    Watchman, reading over your posts, I have seen some material that (imho) deserves a warning, but, then again, I'm not a mod.
    As for Muslims, I do not dislike them at all, but the fact is that they do not integrate into a society of non-muslims well at all.
    I mean no offence to Muslims, but have you ever read the Koran? It is full of things about torturing, mutilating, and slaughtering any non-muslims. Their religion and way of life is not compatible with the rest of society. They are best left too themselves and respected by all.
    Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.
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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    And here all the history I've read for the last one and half decades has strongly suggested religious trouble has a funny tendency to only really start turning up if there's major issues on the socioeconomical side first...

    Tolerance seems to be something of a luxury good, y' see. When things are bad people don't seem to be able to afford it anymore.
    You haven't been paying attention to recent religious troubles have you? If you want to try to link terrorism to socioeconomic status you're wrong. In less, of course, you're saying that young, intelligent, college educated men are getting the short end of the stick in society.

    Look at the 9/11 and London bombing types. You'll also find that the Saudi Wahabists spreading so much religious turmoil are quite wealthy. You should be more focused on the socioeconomics of the Middle East. Look at their governmental and economic systems before you start blaming capitalism or: "brave new global economy obsessed with short-term profit."

    Edit: "Plus there's been a Muslim minority in Finland for round two centuries without a hitch. Heck, they even joined in on despising the Somalis in the Nineties - now that's naturalized..."

    You're ignoring the rise of militant Islam in the later half of the 20th century. How that minority coexisted doesn't matter, the new paradigm does.
    Last edited by Vladimir; 12-04-2006 at 18:53.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
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  20. #20
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    Scriptures, schmiptures. The thing is, people only ever read the parts out of those they want to, and hoo boy there's no end to how creative they can get at that. Take a progressive-reformer duly empowered/recognized scholar/holy man of a faith and his beady-eyed ultra-conservative colleague, and odds are they can quote and interpret the exact damn same part of a Scripture to legitimize their polarly opposite POVs on some subject. The Bible was happily quoted both for and against slavery, for one example. The Koran can be and is read both for and against womens' rights (which for that matter was also the case with the Bible back in the day).

    It's not what a religion theoretically contains, but what its adherents at a given time prefer to pay attention to. The way Christians have a funny tendency to categorically ignore the pretty indisputable Thou Shalt Not Kill thing whenever convenient is a sort of good example, and few have spoken so eloquently in praise of wine as Muslim poets. The Persians also habitually ignored the (supposed) ban on descriptive art, while assorted African Muslim populaces have no compunctions about claiming female circumscision is supported by the Koran (which is bollocks)...

    All faiths do that. It's extraconfessional factors that decide how exactly the believers interpret the invariably rather obscure sacred writings and apply them.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  21. #21
    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    Scriptures, schmiptures. The thing is, people only ever read the parts out of those they want to, and hoo boy there's no end to how creative they can get at that. Take a progressive-reformer duly empowered/recognized scholar/holy man of a faith and his beady-eyed ultra-conservative colleague, and odds are they can quote and interpret the exact damn same part of a Scripture to legitimize their polarly opposite POVs on some subject. The Bible was happily quoted both for and against slavery, for one example. The Koran can be and is read both for and against womens' rights (which for that matter was also the case with the Bible back in the day).

    It's not what a religion theoretically contains, but what its adherents at a given time prefer to pay attention to. The way Christians have a funny tendency to categorically ignore the pretty indisputable Thou Shalt Not Kill thing whenever convenient is a sort of good example, and few have spoken so eloquently in praise of wine as Muslim poets. The Persians also habitually ignored the (supposed) ban on descriptive art, while assorted African Muslim populaces have no compunctions about claiming female circumscision is supported by the Koran (which is bollocks)...

    All faiths do that. It's extraconfessional factors that decide how exactly the believers interpret the invariably rather obscure sacred writings and apply them.

    I don't know, some things seem a little hard to misinterpret,



    Integration you say?

    Koran 5:51
    Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrong-doers.

    Koran 5:57
    Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels and those who were given the Book before you, who have made your religion a jest and a pasttime...

    Koran 5:64
    The Jews say: 'God's hand is chained.' May their own hands be chained! May they be cursed for what they say!...


    Koran 9:29
    Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last day, nor hold the forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jiziyah with willing submission. And feel themselves subdued.


    Maybe you are right...that could be taken many ways. As for other reasons they don't integrate well with the rest of society, is their HUGE religious differences...like treatment of women....



    “Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God’s guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them.” Sura IV,35-40



    (Koran 8:12) "Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."

    (Koran 5: 33-34) "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom; Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is forgiving, merciful."

    (Koran 76: 4) "Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers chains, yokes and a blazing fire."

    (Koran 22: 19-22) "These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling fluid will be poured down their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning."

    From the Quran:

    II/223: Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate). So go to your tilth as ye will...

    IV/34: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other.. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them.


    IV/15: If any one of your women is guilty of lewdness ...confine them until death claims them.

    IV/16: If two men among you commit indecency (sodomy) punish them both. If they repent and mend their ways, let them be. Allah is forgiving and merciful.

    XXIV/6-7: As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves , let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies...


    Quotes From Sahih Muslim Hadith:

    Chapter 1140: The prophet said : "The majority of those who entered the fire of Hell were women."

    **************************************************


    Koran 9:29
    Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the jiziya (poll tax) with the hand of humility.

    Koran 5:33-34
    The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom; Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, merciful.
    *******************************************************




    Muslims do not do well with other people. That is a FACT. They still hate Christians so much to this day because they repelled the Muslim attacks (the Franks under Charles Martel) that they still refer to Americans (and most Christians in general) as Franks!

    As for the Bible, it has only one meaning. To take you example in particular, if you spoke Hebrew you would know that that is not "Though shalt not kill", but, "Though Shalt not murder". It was a mistranslation that people still stick by today. The difference is enormous, as God commands you to protect society by killing evil people who could hurt it. The Bible never contradicts itsself.
    Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.
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    Everything you need to know about Kadagar_AV:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    In a racial conflict I'd have no problem popping off some negroes.

  22. #22
    ............... Member Scurvy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk
    I mean no offence to Muslims, but have you ever read the Koran? It is full of things about torturing, mutilating, and slaughtering any non-muslims. Their religion and way of life is not compatible with the rest of society. They are best left too themselves and respected by all.
    As Watchman has said, scriptures proove nothing for anything (and i would say the same if someone was arguing for islam being peaceful) - they can be interpretted easily, just look at the vastly different opinions on the bible etc, the koran is the same.


    On the whole immigration thing, i (actauly) agree with frag when he says time is the answer, policies that look to deliberately integrate muslims into society could easily have the opposite effect.....

    however i do think they the problem is both with the nature of islam and our own society, muslims immigrate to Britain (and holland ) because they see the nicer life we have here (and we do) - we have no right to deny them access to our country, especially if they are moving from very poor or violent areas of the world, they have to accept that they will have to be flexible, and that is possible, what has to happen is that al;l the internal radicals (mainly clerics i think) need to eliminated, or at least pacified, without radical leaders the extremism which tends to evolve from the turbulant reas immagrants come from is reduced over time... what mustnt happen is that muslims are refused opportunities because of their religion or culture, they have to accomodate for our society, but the only way to integrate them is to give them jobs etc, modern society is proof that when lifestyle improves religion becomes less important. [sorry its a bit messy, first post for a while]

    The nature of islam in no way prevents integration, society has absorbed many immagrant influx's over time. Certainly in Britain at the moment its only a very small minority of muslims who have problems intgrating (usually those with the most extreme beliefs) - it just takes time for the muslim community to adapt. - I also dislike the claim that muslims tend to isolate themselves, certainly in my community many muslims are active members of the area, helping with charity events etc as much as anyone else (although i realize im in a very multicultural area - i don't know about otherwise)


  23. #23
    ............... Member Scurvy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk

    Muslims do not do well with other people. That is a FACT. They still hate Christians so much to this day because they repelled the Muslim attacks (the Franks under Charles Martel) that they still refer to Americans (and most Christians in general) as Franks!
    Absurd [i like that word] statement - I dont think you are muslim, so how do you know they refer to us as franks, even if they do why is this necisarily a bad thing - we still call the french french, even though we fought with them for 100 years and more.
    they also dont hate christianity, i can accept that many muslims would hate the jewish faith, but certainly not christianity (christianity and islam are fairly similar religions in the grand scheme of things....)

    As for the Bible, it has only one meaning. To take you example in particular, if you spoke Hebrew you would know that that is not "Though shalt not kill", but, "Though Shalt not murder". It was a mistranslation that people still stick by today. The difference is enormous, as God commands you to protect society by killing evil people who could hurt it. The Bible never contradicts itsself.
    We can play a game here, open the bible at a random page, read the page, open it up at another page, read the page, and then spot the difference

    the bible is full of contradictions, just like any other holy book - not only that but peoples interpretations contradict --> and you cant seriously be advocating killing for christianity, because you just produced a list of quotations from the koran telling muslims to kill people to protect their religion. - im also willing to bet that you can find as many quotes detailing how islam is peaceful and should be nice to others, people only choose to read the parts they want to read, its like tv, you only have to watch the programs you like

    Last edited by Scurvy; 12-04-2006 at 19:47.

  24. #24
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    Xenophobic BS, that.

    Or have you forgotten the Turkish Gastarbeiter in Germany since what, the Seventies ? Sure wasn't them who had severe attitude issues unconductive to integration, far as I know... I'm pretty sure the Pakistanis and others in the UK and various colonials in France since even earlier curiously failed to be a problem before, oh, around the Nineties depression and the kicking-and-screaming neolib economic policies since then, too.
    There were ethnic problems involving Muslims in Britain in the early 2000s, but they were in reaction to attempts by the far-right to pick therm as the new scapegoats (much more PC than Jew-baiting). There was a disgust that the government wasn't protecting them from the neo-Nazis, but they were nonetheless British Muslims. The rising popularity of Islam as an identity, separate from Britishness, can be traced to the Iraq war, whose mendacity disgusted all Muslims in Britain. Of course, these radical preachers who prey on their flock ignore the fact that it also disgusted most of the population in general. Which is why we need to leave the issue behind as soon as possible, hopefully withdrawing in Spring, and work on the social issues without that albatross around our necks.

    For the sceptics: thanks to the legacy of empire, and the continued existence of the Commonwealth, we do have a ready solution to hand. There is already a British Muslim identity, or to be more specific Anglo-Pakistani identity, that existed before the current troubles. We just need to re-engage that and make that the mainstream. The regular contests between the England and Pakistan cricket teams should be one of the most important instruments in this process.

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    ............... Member Scurvy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    perhaps a diplomatic change of umpire next time

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    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian
    There were ethnic problems involving Muslims in Britain in the early 2000s, but they were in reaction to attempts by the far-right to pick therm as the new scapegoats (much more PC than Jew-baiting). There was a disgust that the government wasn't protecting them from the neo-Nazis, but they were nonetheless British Muslims. The rising popularity of Islam as an identity, separate from Britishness, can be traced to the Iraq war, whose mendacity disgusted all Muslims in Britain. Of course, these radical preachers who prey on their flock ignore the fact that it also disgusted most of the population in general. Which is why we need to leave the issue behind as soon as possible, hopefully withdrawing in Spring, and work on the social issues without that albatross around our necks.

    For the sceptics: thanks to the legacy of empire, and the continued existence of the Commonwealth, we do have a ready solution to hand. There is already a British Muslim identity, or to be more specific Anglo-Pakistani identity, that existed before the current troubles. We just need to re-engage that and make that the mainstream. The regular contests between the England and Pakistan cricket teams should be one of the most important instruments in this process.
    Tell the Serbs how well muslims CHOOSE to integrate into society...







    Quote Originally Posted by Scurvy
    As Watchman has said, scriptures proove nothing for anything (and i would say the same if someone was arguing for islam being peaceful) - they can be interpretted easily, just look at the vastly different opinions on the bible etc, the koran is the same.


    On the whole immigration thing, i (actauly) agree with frag when he says time is the answer, policies that look to deliberately integrate muslims into society could easily have the opposite effect.....

    however i do think they the problem is both with the nature of islam and our own society, muslims immigrate to Britain (and holland ) because they see the nicer life we have here (and we do) - we have no right to deny them access to our country, especially if they are moving from very poor or violent areas of the world, they have to accept that they will have to be flexible, and that is possible, what has to happen is that al;l the internal radicals (mainly clerics i think) need to eliminated, or at least pacified, without radical leaders the extremism which tends to evolve from the turbulant reas immagrants come from is reduced over time... what mustnt happen is that muslims are refused opportunities because of their religion or culture, they have to accomodate for our society, but the only way to integrate them is to give them jobs etc, modern society is proof that when lifestyle improves religion becomes less important. [sorry its a bit messy, first post for a while]

    The nature of islam in no way prevents integration, society has absorbed many immagrant influx's over time. Certainly in Britain at the moment its only a very small minority of muslims who have problems intgrating (usually those with the most extreme beliefs) - it just takes time for the muslim community to adapt. - I also dislike the claim that muslims tend to isolate themselves, certainly in my community many muslims are active members of the area, helping with charity events etc as much as anyone else (although i realize im in a very multicultural area - i don't know about otherwise)

    Scriptures prove a great deal! Even if all Muslims don't know their scriptures to the letter (which most don't...if any), it is still the basic ideology. Just as the basic ideology for Christianity is living a good life-style, treating your nieghbor well, and believing in Christ. Christian do differ on things, but none on the basic ideology I just mentioned. As to the post by Scurvy (below), I know several Muslims myself, have only been friendly, but they are disgusted by me because I am a 'Frank' (oooooohhhhh....), and an infidel!! They have no intentions of living peacably, and, in fact, do everything they can not to. This has been true of all my dealings with Muslims, and while I think there is nothing wrong with Muslims, I do believe that they do not do well inside of non-muslim society - just as a neo-Natzi would do poorly inside of a Jewish and black community. As for your politics...I think I'll need a stiff one before I tackle those...







    Quote Originally Posted by Scurvy
    Absurd [i like that word] statement - I dont think you are muslim, so how do you know they refer to us as franks, even if they do why is this necisarily a bad thing - we still call the french french, even though we fought with them for 100 years and more.
    they also dont hate christianity, i can accept that many muslims would hate the jewish faith, but certainly not christianity (christianity and islam are fairly similar religions in the grand scheme of things....)



    We can play a game here, open the bible at a random page, read the page, open it up at another page, read the page, and then spot the difference

    the bible is full of contradictions, just like any other holy book - not only that but peoples interpretations contradict --> and you cant seriously be advocating killing for christianity, because you just produced a list of quotations from the koran telling muslims to kill people to protect their religion. - im also willing to bet that you can find as many quotes detailing how islam is peaceful and should be nice to others, people only choose to read the parts they want to read, its like tv, you only have to watch the programs you like



    They do refer to us as Franks, and the problem I was trying to point out is their hatred for us, and their tendency to not let grudges go (like why they are still fighting war that have been in progress for thousands of years!). A people like that, could not well integrate into a society of "Franks" (oh my!!) whom they hate so much.

    As for you game, I have but one thing to say: Bring it one! Show me one 'contradiction' and I'll show you to be a fool. Come on now, I just made a pretty bold statement, let's see what you can do. (there is a thread for religion in the backroom where I am sure we could take this.)
    Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    In a racial conflict I'd have no problem popping off some negroes.

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    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk
    As to the post by Scurvy (below), I know several Muslims myself, have only been friendly, but they are disgusted by me because I am a 'Frank' (oooooohhhhh....), and an infidel!! They have no intentions of living peacably, and, in fact, do everything they can not to. This has been true of all my dealings with Muslims

    So you are saying there is no single one Muslim who respects us?

    Allow me :

    - Two years ago we went on a holiday in Tunesia. I had a very long chat with one of the locals there, a taxi driver. He told me he believed Islam and Christendom are basically the same. He believed we all needed to love each other and help each other out. The Muslims who screamed for war and terror, he called them "des extrémistes".
    - four years ago, we were in Turkey, Antalya. I met a nice guy over there. We spoke to each other almost every night. He was a Muslim, I'm a christian. We got along very well and on our last day he called me "Arkadasim" (Turkish for "friend", I hope I spelled it right). He said if we would be neighbours, me living in Turkey, or he in Belgium, we would be best friends, no matter our differences wether in religion, nationality, language, ...

    You shouldn't generalize and you should certainly not state that "ALL Muslims are like that", because it harms those who DO respect us and are capable of living next to us without hating us. I discovered at least two muslims capable of loving me, an "infidel".
    Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy

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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk
    Tell the Serbs how well muslims CHOOSE to integrate into society...
    What's that got to do with us in Britain? I know a number of Muslims (mostly Pakistanis), and they epitomise the virtues of multiculturalism. They are Pakistani, Muslim, British, and European at the same time, in different ways. I would no more ask them to pick an identity and stick with it than I would ask a dish to choose one of the 5 flavours and eschew all others.

  29. #29
    Intifadah Member Dâriűsh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk
    Muslims do not do well with other people. That is a FACT. They still hate Christians so much to this day because they repelled the Muslim attacks (the Franks under Charles Martel) that they still refer to Americans (and most Christians in general) as Franks!
    !!!
    "The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of the martyr."


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  30. #30
    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policies 'aid Muslim extremism'

    Quote Originally Posted by AndresTheCunning
    So you are saying there is no single one Muslim who respects us?

    Allow me :

    - Two years ago we went on a holiday in Tunesia. I had a very long chat with one of the locals there, a taxi driver. He told me he believed Islam and Christendom are basically the same. He believed we all needed to love each other and help each other out. The Muslims who screamed for war and terror, he called them "des extrémistes".
    - four years ago, we were in Turkey, Antalya. I met a nice guy over there. We spoke to each other almost every night. He was a Muslim, I'm a christian. We got along very well and on our last day he called me "Arkadasim" (Turkish for "friend", I hope I spelled it right). He said if we would be neighbours, me living in Turkey, or he in Belgium, we would be best friends, no matter our differences wether in religion, nationality, language, ...

    You shouldn't generalize and you should certainly not state that "ALL Muslims are like that", because it harms those who DO respect us and are capable of living next to us without hating us. I discovered at least two muslims capable of loving me, an "infidel".
    I never said 'all' Muslims, but simply the ones I've personally met. While all Muslims are not like that, most, UNDENIABLY, are.
    Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.
    Vigilance is our shield, that protects us from our squalid past. Knowledge is our weapon, with which we carve a path to an enlightened future.

    Everything you need to know about Kadagar_AV:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    In a racial conflict I'd have no problem popping off some negroes.

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