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Thread: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

  1. #1
    Member Member Rothe's Avatar
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    Default Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    I have found that the diplomacy system is actually quite "playable" despite many complaints about it. I am currently playing a grand campaign as Venice (H/VH).

    I have found that you can make treaties and with relative reliability keep them if you give tribute/gifts to the faction you are in alliance/peace with.

    For example, 100 florins per turn has kept the HRE off my back as Venice with trade rights granted all the way, even though they are also allied with my enemy, Milan. It seems that a continued tribute makes them hesitant to attack you.

    Also, I keep an eye on the relationship meter and when it drops to so-and-so I give some gift, like map information or 500 florins to get it back to reasonable. I also think that the longer you have had peace with a faction, the less it takes to keep the relations up.

    The second thing to keep diplomacy up is to ally with the pope and keep gifting him with suitable stuff (not necessary regions even though many do this as well). I find that a 100/turn is enough to keep decent standings as long as I also give some 500 florins as a gift if I do something to upset the pope.

    So far I have consistently kept England, Denmark and HRE in peace, with England and Danes as allies even. This also helps with trade income, which in turn helps with the tributes.

    The gifts do not have to be big, just that you have to keep on giving.
    The odd part is that this sort of skews the game against the player, but I suppose it must be so to level the field a bit.

    I tend to make up for this by selling off trade rights and alliances to other factions, which will in time betray me, attack and then when I beat them they will again pay me for the priviledges.... The trick seems to be to keep a few (2-3) factions gifted up and happy, so you have some safe fronts. Also, make sure that you have a diplomat in their areas. I suppose that muslim nations are more of a problem for the player as there are plenty of enemies that will probably not even take the gifts.
    Total war games played so far:
    STW, MTW, MTW:VI, RTW, MTW2, ETW, STW2

  2. #2
    Captain Obvious Member Maizel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    Great post, Thanks for the pointers.

    I'm gonna try that soon

  3. #3

    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    Quote Originally Posted by Rothe
    The odd part is that this sort of skews the game against the player, but I suppose it must be so to level the field a bit.
    Well, taking into account the huge amount of money you can get by:
    - map selling.
    - extortion.
    - selling trade rights.
    - selling alliances.
    - selling your princesses.

    etc...

    I usually receive tribute the first 30 turns from 5-8 factions (about 1000-4000/turn). So, spending a small part of this to have only one opponent can work very well. I'll try next time.

  4. #4
    Ricardus Insanusaum Member Bob the Insane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    Interesting to see 100 florins has an effect, maybe I am wasting money with my 1000 florin gifts (they pretty much guarantee a one level increase in relations with that faction)?

    Additionally I play with Hard campaign difficulty too and I suspect that your reputation automatically degrades over time with other factions if left alone...
    Last edited by Bob the Insane; 12-04-2006 at 12:49.

  5. #5
    Member Member Rothe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    I suppose any tribute will make them less likely to attack you.

    I suspect the following:

    The AI is less likely to attack you if your relations are so-and-so or reliable and up from there. It may still attack you at so-and-so. This is logical.

    If you are at so-and-so, some things may prompt an attack and some things make an attack less likely. I suspect that even if you pay 10 florins/turn it will help. I find that a bit against logic, the continued tribute makes a difference even if it is small, so it seems to have a separate additional influence from the relations with the other factions you see on the diplomacy screen.

    Also, it is less likely for a catholic AI to attack you if you have high papal standing.

    So, my tactic is to keep the relations at so-and-so with single gifts (maps/500 florins etc.) and also to keep up the small continued tribute. Also, I keep up relations with the pope.

    I could be wrong, but so far it is working.
    Total war games played so far:
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    Member Member Wallas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    Diplomacy works and keeps alliances together except against AI fleets. For example France started a war with me by landing his diplomat to my shores and by blocking my port at the same time. But in the next turn I was able to make pease and form a new alliance with them. We didn't even have a mutual border. To me it seems that AI can't controll it's fleets properly and he starts war accidentally with them.

  7. #7
    A Livonian Rebel Member Slaists's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    Well, that does not sound so unreasonable actually... with all those drunk, crazy sailors and all... They starte a brawl here or there and voila - you've got a war on your hands :) However, if the relationships with the attacking AI faction are good, they are likely to sue for peace and apologize for their fleet's actions... sometimes paying with a province or two...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallas
    Diplomacy works and keeps alliances together except against AI fleets. For example France started a war with me by landing his diplomat to my shores and by blocking my port at the same time. But in the next turn I was able to make pease and form a new alliance with them. We didn't even have a mutual border. To me it seems that AI can't controll it's fleets properly and he starts war accidentally with them.

  8. #8
    A Livonian Rebel Member Slaists's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    Keep a spy in your closest neighbor's cities. Then, when offering a gift to the faction you are likely to see their "priorities" revealed. I had Germans at "amiable" level for some time, however, their priorities were clearly stated as "war"... In about ten turns (from the time the war priority appeared) they attacked... got excommunicated the very next turn since (I guess) my relations to the pope were perfect :) The same could not be said about the Germans. (H Campaign difficulty)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rothe
    I suppose any tribute will make them less likely to attack you.

    I suspect the following:

    The AI is less likely to attack you if your relations are so-and-so or reliable and up from there. It may still attack you at so-and-so. This is logical.

    If you are at so-and-so, some things may prompt an attack and some things make an attack less likely. I suspect that even if you pay 10 florins/turn it will help. I find that a bit against logic, the continued tribute makes a difference even if it is small, so it seems to have a separate additional influence from the relations with the other factions you see on the diplomacy screen.

    Also, it is less likely for a catholic AI to attack you if you have high papal standing.

    So, my tactic is to keep the relations at so-and-so with single gifts (maps/500 florins etc.) and also to keep up the small continued tribute. Also, I keep up relations with the pope.

    I could be wrong, but so far it is working.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Senior Member Oaty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    Also don't milk the AI for all its worth. Making a diplomatic deal that is either considered genorous or very genorous increases relations.

    So if you can sell map info for 2000 at balanced and 1300 for genorous, you dhould opt for 1300 unless you need every florin you can get. Also selling the map info for 2700 at demanding may or may not be accepted but it can decrease relations.
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  10. #10
    Spiritual Jedi Member maestro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    I have to say that having heard loads of nay-saying about "M2TW diplomacy is broke" and "it doesn't work" and "the campaign AI is stupid!" that I'm having a great campaign as england on Vh/Vh, mostly cause i'v spent a lot of time and effort on the diplomatic front. I think that the trick is that you have to work at your relationships - keep in touch with your allies and keep an eye on your foes. I allied with the French (outrageous, I know) on my very first turn by marrying my faction heir to a princess of theirs and that forged an alliance which has lasted for over a hundred turns so far. Knowing that the HRE and Denmark would surely attack me, I allied myself quickly to Poland, the Vatican and Portugal and, more recently, to Venice. Again, I have worked on ym relations with my allies; periodically giving them map information or a thousand here and there to keep relations "amiable" or higher. Not a single Alliance has been broken because we have great relations. I can't help but conclude that all those nay-sayers who are whinging about the diplomacy being broken and complaining that alliances aren't worth diddly-squat are simply lazy: an alliance is only worth that which you put into it. If you make an alliance with someone early in the game and don't ever do anything to sure up your relations then they will eventually turn against you - it figures.

    Again, by using the diplomatic channels, I have secured tens of thousands of cash from warfare. I have never started a war, but have brought about devastating retribution for those who have crossed me and as a result my diplomatic reputation is reliable. By demanding extortionate money for cease-fires when enemies realise their error of attacking me and for attacking common enemies with allies and again demanding monies there's a lot to be made through diplomacy and this can be used to pay for diplomacy. Diplomacy pays, folks, diplomacy pays.

    In my latest "coup de grace", I have literally negotiated global peace! Due to my massive armed forces I was making less than ten thousand cash profit per turn so decided that I needed peace. I sold a cease fire to Milan for twenty thousand and used that coupled with my two, unmarried daughters to broker a couple of other alliances which netted the result of every war ceasing accross the globe! I couldn't believe it! Shows what can be acheived when you're a diplomatic power-house who is trust-worthy, powerful and influential. Oh, did I mention that the last two popes have been English?

    Diplomacy takes some effort but is extremely rewarding and adds a fantastic dimension to the game.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    I agree with Maestro's assessment. Diplomacy does work in terms of alliances.

    My problem/difficulty is reaching peace with an enemy. Nothing seems to tempt the AI into peace. Any tips on achieving peace during a long war with an enemy

  12. #12
    "'elp! I'm bein' repressed!" Senior Member Aenlic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    Playing as the Moors on H/H and using the Regnum Dei 1.7.7 mod, I was able to get an alliance and trade rights from every faction except the Scots. I even allied with the Pope. By the time I got my two diplomats to the Russians and the Turks, I had already gone to war with Portugal and Spain; but all of the other alliances held until the French suddenly remembered how much they admire Roland and blockaded one of my ports.

    Even after destroying Spain and Portugal, and going to war with France, I remained allied with every other faction (except the Scots because I hadn't gotten around to putting a diplomat to sea). I'm interested in seeing how long I can maintain all of these alliances while slowly picking off factions one at a time.
    Last edited by Aenlic; 12-04-2006 at 18:55.
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  13. #13
    A Livonian Rebel Member Slaists's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    I have not tried the VH campaign setting yet, but I have similar experience on H. MTW 2 Diplomacy does make sense to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by maestro

    In my latest "coup de grace", I have literally negotiated global peace! Due to my massive armed forces I was making less than ten thousand cash profit per turn so decided that I needed peace. I sold a cease fire to Milan for twenty thousand and used that coupled with my two, unmarried daughters to broker a couple of other alliances which netted the result of every war ceasing accross the globe! I couldn't believe it! Shows what can be acheived when you're a diplomatic power-house who is trust-worthy, powerful and influential. Oh, did I mention that the last two popes have been English?

    Diplomacy takes some effort but is extremely rewarding and adds a fantastic dimension to the game.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    Well, led me see if i understood. To keep any aliance you got PAY tribute for that in every single turn. You got GIVE gifts even if you are stronger... allright.
    So this crapy diplamacy is working? Forgive me but its just ridiculous... thats a broken diplmacy made for fanboys.

  15. #15
    A Livonian Rebel Member Slaists's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    Quote Originally Posted by Eques
    Well, led me see if i understood. To keep any aliance you got PAY tribute for that in every single turn. You got GIVE gifts even if you are stronger... allright.
    So this crapy diplamacy is working? Forgive me but its just ridiculous... thats a broken diplmacy made for fanboys.
    Well, look at United Nations in real life today... Basically all developing nations are ganging up and shouting in one mouth that it is the "duty" of the developed nations to give cash to the developing ones ... Guess, who is stronger in the field of battle... Guess who is paying... Would you say it is ridiculous?

    IMHO the game models this situation quite right...
    Last edited by Slaists; 12-04-2006 at 20:38.

  16. #16
    Member Member Morindin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    Yeah I've found the OPs tactics it works a treat as well.

    The diplomacy also works far better than Rome. For example, last night Egypt declared war on me. I was the English and in control of Antioc. Then the Pope declared a crusade to Jerusalem - jwhich was controlled by Egypt. Spain, Milan, HRE, France, Sicily all declared war on Egypt.
    Next turn Egypt scrambled to get a cease-fire with me, they were totally freaked out.

    Also the power of a nation when it comes to negotiating isn't nessesarily based on their sole faction power, but rather the power of their alliance. A weaker faction may actually regard you as weak if they are member of a very powerful alliance (and vise versa).
    Talk is cheap - Supply exceeds Demand.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    Yeah sure... if US dont send food to Senegal (for example) Senegal will probably declare war and send lots of MIG17 to bombard Washington. If they dont send some money to help lets say... Trinidade e Tobago, they will probably do the same, of course! Thats an incredible argument.

  18. #18
    A Livonian Rebel Member Slaists's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    Quote Originally Posted by Eques
    Yeah sure... if US dont send food to Senegal (for example) Senegal will probably declare war and send lots of MIG17 to bombard Washington. If they dont send some money to help lets say... Trinidade e Tobago, they will probably do the same, of course! Thats an incredible argument.
    I am not talking about direct attacking here. I am talking about relations, which the game models in the range from "abysmal" to "perfect". in the current world, even after sending food to Sudan, the relations between them and the US, for example, stay "so-so" at best.

    And even if we talk about direct attack: it's not unprecedented in history (not realistic nowadays though). Look at german tribes wandering into Roman territory. Frequently their forces were quite insufficient to defeat the whole imperial army, but they still managed to "squeeze out" tribute either from Estern or Western Rome...
    Last edited by Slaists; 12-04-2006 at 20:52.

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    Ricardus Insanusaum Member Bob the Insane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    I don't think anyone is declaring the M2TW diplomacy as perfect, simply that it is not as random or as bad as many percive it to be...

    Basically the way the AI is program, through choice or fault, it does not deal well with being bullied into something. In a game of diplomatic chicken it never blicks and it does not bluff (as far as we are aware). It never backs down and will fight to the end and all deals have to break even at the very least according to some formula (which may change with difficulty level).

    I wonder how aggressive it is programed to be? If an AI faction is hemmed in by other factions it is allied to what logic actually determines whether it should attack and whom it should attack (Weakest? worst relationship? worst reputation? the player?)?

    Hopefully the fact that much of this has been expressed externally in text or XML files means we have a chance at finding out once the patch/unpacker comes out...
    Last edited by Bob the Insane; 12-04-2006 at 20:57.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    I think the AI diplomacy has worked well for the most part. However, there is a very big exception and that is ceasefires. In the end of my Venice game, I was around 40 provinces and was making tons of money and had lots of soldiers. The English were asking for 40k for a ceasefire. They had the British Isles and maybe a few provinces in Scandinavia or Iberia. Needless to say, I said no thanks to the repeated offers and conquered London instead.

  21. #21
    Spiritual Jedi Member maestro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    Quote Originally Posted by Eques
    Well, led me see if i understood. To keep any aliance you got PAY tribute for that in every single turn.
    No, you didn't understand. Not one bit. But then it takes a modicum of intelligence to work the M2TW diplomacy.

    Put it this way: if you met a guy at a party who you got on with and decided they were a friend then their status with you is friendly. If you then never phone, write, text or talk to them again, that friendly feeling is gonna go away over time, right? Same applies with diplomacy. If you decide this guy and yourself have similar interests or goals and make a pact to work on a project together for the common good of each other then you have some kind of "alliance", but if you then don't ever phone, write, text or talk to them again or share any ideas or anything then that "alliance" is going to faulter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eques
    You got GIVE gifts even if you are stronger... allright.
    It's simple people-politics, it ain't rocket science. You don't have to pay some kind of tribute every turn to maintain an alliance - that would be broken diplomacy - yo ucompletely misunderstood my post, or failed to read it properly. it's a case of looking after your allies, not paying for their friendship. if they're broke then give them some money - it's called being friends. If they're struggling with a war, or lose a settlement then help them by attacking their enemies or even retake their settlement then gift it back to your allies. it's called being friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eques
    So this crapy diplamacy is working? Forgive me but its just ridiculous... thats a broken diplmacy made for fanboys.
    If you want a game to have diplomacy whereby you can simply "make an alliance", to which the AI has to keep forever and then go round conquering the world and expect your allies to idly sit back and watch, knowing full well that their time will come then you're playing the wrong game. That would be broken diplomacy.

    If you're struggling with the diplomacy then say so - there's plenty of peopple who can, and will help you but coming out with comments like "its just ridiculous... thats a broken diplmacy made for fanboys" makes you sound like a spoilt kid who doesn't want to play any more cause he didn't understand the rules first time. might I remind you that the game does, indeed, have a 16+ certificate.
    Last edited by maestro; 12-04-2006 at 22:51.
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  22. #22
    Member Member Morindin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewt
    I think the AI diplomacy has worked well for the most part. However, there is a very big exception and that is ceasefires. In the end of my Venice game, I was around 40 provinces and was making tons of money and had lots of soldiers. The English were asking for 40k for a ceasefire. They had the British Isles and maybe a few provinces in Scandinavia or Iberia. Needless to say, I said no thanks to the repeated offers and conquered London instead.
    Again this is based on their alliance power and not individual power. Check their rating, it is probably 'supreme' due to the alliances they were in, or something along those lines.
    Talk is cheap - Supply exceeds Demand.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    I agree that diplomacy in the game is very intelligent and intricate. The first campaign I played, I was busy getting used to the game and paid little or no attention to the relationship rating. Now I keep all my allied relationships at 'perfect' having learned to use that little gift box button next to the 'make offer' one. The AI mirrors what you would expect in real life. You have to support your allies in peace as well as war. Negotiating an 'attack faction' gift with an ally against one of their enemies does wonders for a relationship rating as it would in real life.

    You have to get past the pride thing of apparent submission that is implied by thinking 'pay tribute'. It's just semantics. Think of it as yourself being a benefactor providing assistance to your allies. I'm not sure, but it would be logical for that to improve chivalry in the long run. Paying attention to the faction ranking graph and keeping your enemies generally the same as those of your allies, it is also apparent that providing allies with assistance is not against your own best interests as your group of enemies (declared or not) tend to decrease in ranking over time while your allies and yourself increase.

    It is also well noted that a status of 'perfect' in relationship does not absolutely guarantee no hostilities. The famous quote,"walk softly and carry a big stick" comes to mind in discouraging hostile actions. I've had the French at a 'perfect' relationship status blockade one of my ports in an act of war. Despite this act of war, our relationship rating was still listed as 'outstanding'.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    Is marriage only way to get alliance with anybody on VH?

  25. #25
    Research Fiend Technical Administrator Tetris Champion, Summer Games Champion, Snakeman Champion, Ms Pacman Champion therother's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    The data text files have been released: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=73971. The descr_faction_standing.txt file reveals quite a bit about what affects your relations with the Pope, as well as other factions, and your global reputation. Worth a read IMO.
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  26. #26
    blaaaaaaaaaarg! Senior Member Lusted's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    Yeah some comments in those files show that the ai is set up not to trust the player, hence why helping it out from time to when as maestro suggested helps the ai to trust you.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    Fascinating news about vassals/protectorage -- from descr_campaign_ai_db.xml:

    Code:
    			<decision_entry>
    				<!--
    					if we're at war && we've more than five times his frontline strength && we're superior overall &&
    					we outproduce him >>> propose he become vassal, invade immediate.  If our shadow, do not want to offer protectorate
    				-->
    				<min_entry	stance="AtWar" frontline_balance="5.0" military_balance="1.0" production_balance="1.0"/>
    				<faction_attitude	invade="invade_immediate" invade_priority="800" want_offer_protect="false"/>
    			</decision_entry>

  28. #28
    Senior Member Senior Member Vanya's Avatar
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    Exclamation Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    GAH!

    Vanya sez...

    Do not make the mistake of presuming your diplomats are cunning linguists. They only really manage to shove their own foot in their mouth most of the times.

    Vanya routinely beheads those lying bastids anyways. Builds them, then beheads them before they can get Vanya into hot water. Keeps Vanya's supply of heads adequate during times of peace and keeps the enemies happy by not wasting their time with baby-talk and gobbledeegook.

    It's what those lying, two-faced diploid bastids like to call "a win-win extensible value-added synergy-empowered process". (Or something like that. Youz must forgive Vanya's lacking gobbledeegook prowess. )

    GAH!
    [Sips sake, eats popcorn]

  29. #29
    Member Member Nebuchadnezzar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    I've played 4 campaigns on VH/VH
    I've never started a war.
    I've married princesses to other faction heirs to create (lasting?) alliances.
    I've gifted money to allies.

    I've never had an alliance last more than 6 turns into any game (except with papal states)

    Once your power is supreme all diplomacy simply ceases to function (VH)

    I have not been able to find any evidence whatsoever to support the sugestion that diplomacy in MTW2 is either intricate or logical.

  30. #30
    Member Member Morindin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Diplomacy and keeping relations up

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar
    I've played 4 campaigns on VH/VH
    I've never started a war.
    I've married princesses to other faction heirs to create (lasting?) alliances.
    I've gifted money to allies.

    I've never had an alliance last more than 6 turns into any game (except with papal states)

    Once your power is supreme all diplomacy simply ceases to function (VH)

    I have not been able to find any evidence whatsoever to support the sugestion that diplomacy in MTW2 is either intricate or logical.
    You are playing on VH which is a completely different kettle of fish. Do not expect diplomacy on that level.

    One thing I have noticed (and I noticed this in RTW as well) is that sometimes your production drops very low - almost to nothing - for a turn or two. I always suspected the AI made some rash decisions based on this production glitch.

    They think you incapable of producing anything and go guns blazing, not realising you have about 20 cities able to pump out armies in a second.
    Talk is cheap - Supply exceeds Demand.

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