Samurai Wars Unit vs Unit Chart

[Puzz3D]

Where it says "B is 3 kills per volley on average at max range," is meant "B is 2 kills per volley on average at max range," correct? Otherwise this is the same as the previous line, for A.

Where it says "C is 10/90 chance to win/lose," is meant "E is 10/90 chance to win/lose," correct?

Yes you are right. I've corrected both of these things in the post.

Any comments about the Hatamoto unit?

It's intended to be useful as the taisho's unit, but not so effective that it gets used as a standard unit. It's original cost and combat stats were adjusted after analyzing multiplayer battles, and I think we succeeded in placing it in the intended role. The taisho himself has 6 hitpoints (this can't be changed) which basically doubles the hatamoto unit's effective size, and his unit gets +2 morale which is why a taisho unit works better than a non-taisho unit. The relatively low cost allows the hatamoto to be held back from melee longer than you can with a higher cost unit such as NC or HC. It can be very effective in the later stages of a battle since it's fast and maneuverable.

With naginata, doesn't it make sense not to attack with them, but line them up in ranks in Hold Formation and move them into melee, letting them defend as they go--like many players use Byzantine Infantry in VI? Their defense stat is strong, not their attack, so by pushing into the melee without click-attacking a unit, their defense stat is in effect, correct? The chart shows a D rating for NA against monks. WM attack stat is 5, and defense stat is 2; NA in Hold Formation attack stat is -3 and defense stat is 9 ... WM still has advantage if attacking because of the morale penalty it inflicts, and the NA's two less base morale to begin with. But does this really result in a D grade? Or is the chart assuming the NA are click-attacking in Engage at Will mode?

The defensive stat is always in effect whether or not you click on the enemy unit. Clicking on the enemy unit causes your unit to charge which gives it the charge bonus. The naginata unit only has a small charge bonus, and it's probably not worth breaking formation to get this bonus. The WM doesn't inflict a morale penalty just by attacking, although cavalry does when attacking infantry in the MTW/VI engine.

The D grade for NA vs WM is due to NA having 6 combat points and WM having 7, and due to the WM's individual men moving faster. This seems to benefit them in making multiple attacks after they gain a numerical advantage. The D not a precise rating, but, as I recall, tests showed it to be closer to a D than a D+. Switching the naginata to hold formation doesn't change the outcome of that matchup, but it does allow the naginata to hold out longer.

I see the unit in a defensive role or as a blocking unit while you flank with another unit. Some players do get good use of it in attacking. It can be used to tie up the more expensive WM for a long time which will give a temporary advantage somewhere else. You could shoot the WM with an archer while the NA engages it with minimal loss to the NA.

Are No Dachi truly "terrible" against Warrior Monks? I assume this is because of the difference in defense and the morale penalty incurred when attacked by monks? What if the No Dachi attack the monks and get in a good charge before the monks can attack? Might they rate a "+" in this instance? I'm surprised that they rate E, rather than D (I haven't done the math; I base this on intuition and subjective observation). Granted, the cost difference is significant--two NDs for the cost of one WM. Yeah, I guess it makes sense that a monk would eat a ND unit for dinner one on one, all else being equal. I've still got upgraded NDs from MI on my brain.

Yes. Avoid this matchup at all costs because the no-dachi will loose very quickly so it won't buy you enough time to make a counter move. The no-dachi do have a higher charge bonus, and that's what you should try to take advantage of when using them. They are intended to be used as a flanker, although, they can defeat YS straight up. If you can charge into a stationary WM, then you can give the no-dachi a +, but I would do it into a flank. The chart is for units fighting frontally with both units charging. Two ND standing side by side can beat a single WM. Engage frontally with one ND in hold formation, and move the other to attack the rear of the WM. The two ND will win.

Upgraded ND were very strong in MI, but this was the result of a mistake in the way weapon and armor upgrade costs were calculated in MI. In original STW, they were better balanced, although, they were usually upgraded there as well but so were YS. This served to close the gap between the weaker YS and ND and the stronger NA and WM which weakened the RPS gameplay. It has been argued that the RPS gameplay in Samurai Wars may be too strong, but consider that you can still beat a WM with two YS just as you could in original STW with no upgrades applied to the YS.

One thing I miss from VI (if you can believe that) is the speed and turn around rate of light cav (i.e. Alans, Steppe Cav, etc.). I'd always imagined Yari Cav to be like these, but they don't seem to react like them in BETA8. Feints and harrassment seem a bit impractical so far, and limits their use to fast anti cav, or flank/rear attacks and cleaning up abandoned ranged units--which Cav Archers do just fine. H1 CA only cost 20 koku more than YC. At H0 they fire as quickly and accurately as foot archers, over the same distance, and with the same ammo ... and only cost 200 koku more. Gonna have to try these puppies next weekend.

Units turned faster in STW than they do in MTW. We investigated all the parameters that might be used to increase the turn rate, but they didn't have any effect. A game mechanic also affecting this is that, in the MTW/VI engine, the unit leader has to move to the front of the unit before it will head off in the new direction. Combined with the larger 60 man cavalry units in Samurai Wars this causes cav units to change direction slower than the 40 man units of MTW/VI. Alans and Steppe cav were often used in 2 ranks to charge and feint allowing them to reverse direction quickly. If you put a 60 man cav unit in 2 ranks, it becomes quite unwieldy. On the other hand, a 60 man cav unit can remain useful after more encounters than a 40 man unit.

The YC is intended to be a flanker and anti-cav unit. It doesn't have high enough morale or high enough melee power to fulfill a frontal assault role, although, it can defeat ND which is the weakest sword unit. The asault cav role is fulfilled by the NC and HC units.

In general, upgrades are not worth their cost (especially a valor upgrade which costs 70%), although, in some cases an upgrade might be worth using for its surprise value. A valor upgrade on a CA is not going to be worthwhile because you will still have less combat points than a YC. The CA has evolved over time to what it is in the 11b stat. It was originally more expensive, had less morale, more combat points and less accuracy. Most feedback was that it should be lower cost and a more effective shooter. We did that, and now we see the unit used more. The cost had to remain higher than the foot archer since the CA has higher mobility. The bow was improved, and the melee power lowered. The CA will still loose to SA and to teppo in a shootout. The CA is very good at provoking a response from the enemy when used on a flank which can open lines of attack for the melee cav units. It's also pretty easy to loose a CA to a YC with almost no compensation.

Speaking of which, doesn't it make sense that the rate of fire and accuracy when shooting from horseback would be just a wee bit less than when firing from foot?

That might seem intuitive, but I think Orda would say firing from horseback could be just as accurate and just as fast as from foot. I would say only if the unit could fire when moving would there be some sacrifice in accuracy. It's true, that in original STW, CA had less accuracy than SA. However, in original STW, a unit retained it's full unused ammo regardless of its losses which maintained the total killing capability of its ranged weapon. In MTW/VI, dead men take their ammo with them. We compensated for this by increasing ammo from 28 to 36 arrows. However, because CA take more losses in a shootout with SA, they loose more potential than they did in original STW. The change in accuracy for CA in Samurai Wars was gradual (0.4. 0.5 and finally 0.6 accuracy) using multiplayer feedback. The improvement in the accuracy to equal that of SA maintains the original playbalance better, and as a consequence also makes the unit more dangerous when not countered. The same can be said of SA. They are more dangerous when not countered than they were in original STW. This increases the RPS gameplay which makes rushing more of a risk unless the enemy has taken too many shooters.

Heh, ok ... I'm all over the proverbial map. Time to sleep. Fun games today guys! Thanks.

The battles were good. Thanks for playing. BTW, I had a power failure which is why I left abruptly.