Are Tercio pikemen really good?

**Dunc** · 12-05-2006, 02:59

I haven't really used pikemen at all in battle. Their stats didn't look terribly good, so all my armies are just using dismounted knights as infantry. Is the power of pikemen in their reach and formation rather than their stats?

**Zardoz** · 12-05-2006, 03:12

I'd say their strength is that when supported they can hold formation better than any other unit(even in the face of a successful heavy cavalry charge, which dismounted knights can get chewed up by). They're quite good at holding the main battle line, and perfect for you if you like to put your attack strength in artillery and gunners.

Downside is they're really high up on the tech tree, very slow to react(pike formation prolly takes a good 10 seconds to get set up), poorly armored, fight terribly when out of formation, and are sitting ducks for area of effect weaponry.

I had limited success using them in my spanish campaign. I found them great fun in the Battle of Pavia though.

**Quillan** · 12-05-2006, 03:41

I've been using them, and Zardoz is right on all counts. You have to support them. They hold quite well if the enemy can't get at the side of the unit. If they do, they take lots of casualties. As long as they have to come in from the front, they hold pretty well and do massively well against cavalry. This screenshot came from a bridge battle I had just a few minutes ago. I was holding the bridge between Bruges and Antwerp with an army that was led by a captain, mostly militia troops. I was assaulted by 2 armies of Danes led by a 4 star general. The only non militia troops in the army were 3 units of Tercio Pikemen (who I lined up at the end of the bridge), 1 unit of arquebusiers, and two cannon units (a culverin and a basilisk). Everything was full strength, so these 3 units started at 112 men. The first Danish army was a 17 unit stack, mostly foot troops (norse swordsmen/axemen, dismounted feudal knights, et cetera). When I realized what was charging across the bridge, I expected the pike to die hideously, but as you can see all 3 units are still around. Admittedly, they are well reduced in strength, but those 3 units took the brunt of 1000 men on in melee. As a side note, the Danes first army decided they couldn't force the bridge and backed up to the middle where they hung around. I moved the culverin to the end of the bridge. I call this shot Bowling for Norsemen.

**CrownOfSwords** · 12-05-2006, 03:43

They tend to be useless unless they are standing still when attacked.

**JeffBag** · 12-05-2006, 03:58

No, pikemen are very good for several reasons. Firstly, and perhaps most importantly, they are dirt cheap. Pike militia go for 150, Tercios a mere 350, which is even less than armoured sergeants. Secondly, in spearwall formation, even if they are actually spreaded-out/disrupted, they have uber stats or something. Yet another reason why looking at stats in this game is rather useless. Thirdly, on defense, they annihalate any cavalry charge with losses of up to 5 men. Fourthly, on offense, they are the fastest moving infantry unit, which is almost as fast as some units running speed or something, and with guard mode off they can still destroy charging cavalry even when moving, and destroy any opposing infantry with their swords, since swordsmen are advantaged against spears.

**ChewieTobbacca** · 12-05-2006, 06:02

Tercio Pikemen are extremely effective, especially for the Spanish. My Spanish armies have been unstoppable with a line of 4 units of Tercio Pikemen, 4 units of Sword and Buckler Men for flanks/rseerve melee, 4 units of Gendarmes for heavy cavalry, 4 Pavise/Mounted Crossbowmen, and 4 more units mixed. The key is to have the Tercio Pikemen hold the main brunt of the attack (keep them still to take a charge and even the heaviest of knights will fall in a charge easily against them) with Crossbows used accordingly (Mounted as skirmishers/harassers against melee heavy enemies, pavise crossbows against ranged heavy armies), Gendarmes to flank/fight enemy cavalry, and Sword and Buckler for flanking or covering the pikemen's flanks.

In fact, I use almost no knights at all as Spain (other than Gendarmes if you count them) other than lighter infantry, and it's been a winner against much heavily armored enemies (Catholics) as well as the lighter enemies (moors).

**Trithemius** · 12-05-2006, 09:00

Anyone had success with "classic" late period armies? (muskets and tercios/landsknechts).

**Musashi** · 12-05-2006, 20:06

Originally Posted by Trithemius

Anyone had success with "classic" late period armies? (muskets and tercios/landsknechts).

Much success actually. It works wonderfully. You need light cav to harry the enemy though.

**dopp** · 12-06-2006, 01:18

Originally Posted by Trithemius

Anyone had success with "classic" late period armies? (muskets and tercios/landsknechts).

Works very well. 4 musket 6 pikes, 4 heavy cavalry plus 2 generals to chase routers or counterattack. Only problem is that pikes need to be PERFECTLY stationary to work, whereas in RTW you could gradually advance to the attack with phalanxes. You can't 'push of pike' in this game at all. Might be a bug interfering or some special method to get it to work, because in several games my Tercios actually did advance with pikes lowered and stabbed properly (they were usually units that had beaten their enemies and were moving to help out neighboring units. The muskets will chew up most AI armies easily, even if they have more missile troops (maybe longbows can outshoot them), forcing the enemy to come to you. Another thing to consider is combined arms. If you hit a unit with muskets and it starts wavering, send in the gendarmes (when the cav bug is fixed). If you just continue firing, they may recover their nerve and charge you. Charge them first and drive them off. Sort of like the British guards at Waterloo, volleying the French imperial guards and then charging with bayonets to break their nerve.

**Dunc** · 12-06-2006, 02:16

What about when I go over to fight the Aztecs? Are tercios still going to do the trick in the jungle where their formation might be disrupted a little?

About sword and buckler men... what advantage do they have over dismounted chivalric knights? I recently got the ability to make sword/buckler men but I haven't tried them out yet.

I think I might make an experimental army made up of a line of tercios, plus two units of dismounted chivalric knights to cover the flanks where the tercios would be vulnerable. What do you recommend for the missile sections? Should I go for arquebusiers or just stick with pavise crossbowmen?

**dopp** · 12-06-2006, 02:23

Sword and bucklers are cheaper to maintain. Go for musketeers. Arquebusiers are okay but crossbowmen are adequate until you get muskets. You play one of the handful of factions that can field musketeers. Get them.

I haven't fought the Aztecs yet (win before world-is-round) but I read that pikes are good to fend off the endless waves of warriors.

**Quillan** · 12-06-2006, 02:29

S&B men are something like 540 to recruit and 150 to maintain, base attack of 13, base defense of something like 20, and they are light infantry, so they move faster than dismounted knights do. I've been using 4 musketeers/5 tercios/6 S&B men and 2 jinetes in my late armies. Add a general and I have 3 units of horse, and still have two slots open which I can fill as need be. Most times that's filled with a pair of cannons, either culverins or basilisks. Boy, talk about long range! I have good success with this army. Enough so, that I'm currently building my 3rd and 4th of the same pattern. Musketeers take a while to recruit in numbers, as you only get something like .7 units per turn replenishment of the recruitment pool, and it's expensive and time consuming to get many cities to the point they can recruit them. I have 3 currently, and am actively building the Royal Barracks in numbers 4 and 5.

**ChewieTobbacca** · 12-06-2006, 07:14

Sword and Buckler Men have nearly identical stats to Dismounted knights, but read on: While they may not handle a cavalry charge as well as dismounted knights, they are quicker attacking, do not suffer from too much armor (no penalties against armor piercing weapons), move faster, and are much cheaper to buy and maintain. They will absolutely tear apart the lower end units (militia units, aztecs, etc.) and can fight quite well against even Dismounted Knights of all sorts. They also get a bonus fighting against pikes (they can get in between the pikes themselves). Couple them with pikemen (to take cavalry and hold the enemy at bay) and muskteers (anti-armor and range), and you'll be hard to beat.