Overpowered peasants and the Spear attribute.

[JeffBag]

With the export_descr_unit available now, I went to check out those peasants to see why they were killing all the town militia and spear militias. Well, it seems that the only reason why they are annihilating those spears is simply because, they don't have the spear attribute. This means that the penalty to spears for fighting other infantry is very, very great, and while this may or may not be bad, it seems to make spears even more useless now given that they are completely incapable of holding back cavalry charges even when it is armoured sergeants 6 rows deep against mailed knights.

I don't see why there is a need to penalise spearmen against other infantry units as well, since they aren't exactly very cheap either. Swordsmen or axemen are generally more cost effective since they kill cavalry just fine with their higher attack or armour piercing capabilities, and they are also much more versatile since they are capable of destroying other infantry as well. I must admit that the total bonuses against cavalry are rather significant though, since they get bonuses from the spear attribute, and a further +8 to their attack against cavalry. Unfortunately, given that cavalry units have much lower defense stats now, and even less when you factor out the shield, which is pretty insignificant given that most units would be attacking the horses from the sides when they charge in, and from the back when they charge out. Therefore, there is no real need for such excessive bonuses against cavalry.

[Veresov]

With the export_descr_unit available now, I went to check out those peasants to see why they were killing all the town militia and spear militias. Well, it seems that the only reason why they are annihilating those spears is simply because, they don't have the spear attribute. This means that the penalty to spears for fighting other infantry is very, very great, and while this may or may not be bad, it seems to make spears even more useless now given that they are completely incapable of holding back cavalry charges even when it is armoured sergeants 6 rows deep against mailed knights.

I don't see why there is a need to penalise spearmen against other infantry units as well, since they aren't exactly very cheap either. Swordsmen or axemen are generally more cost effective since they kill cavalry just fine with their higher attack or armour piercing capabilities, and they are also much more versatile since they are capable of destroying other infantry as well. I must admit that the total bonuses against cavalry are rather significant though, since they get bonuses from the spear attribute, and a further +8 to their attack against cavalry. Unfortunately, given that cavalry units have much lower defense stats now, and even less when you factor out the shield, which is pretty insignificant given that most units would be attacking the horses from the sides when they charge in, and from the back when they charge out. Therefore, there is no real need for such excessive bonuses against cavalry.

I am completely mystified as to why the peasants can crush the town watch and the spear militia. Statwise peasants are inferior but they seem to own everything. I mentioned in another post that I built nothing but peasants in the early game and was having no problem taking settlements.

I really do not like this uber peasant 'feature'. It is beyond silly.

[Kraxis]

I noticed the same thing... It seems wholly unreasonable that spearunits suffer such heavy penalties, as to make Peasants be able to take on Sergeant Spearmen on even terms.

And I agree if knights get off a proper charge spears are next to useless. So why even use them?

At least I have found out that all spearunits get at least one type of bonus against cavalry, and most (even Town Militia) get a +4 to attack. Makes one wonder why that isn't mentioned in the description.

Where is that superb spearunit that can fight both infantry and cavalry? The spear was not a bad weapon at all, ask those who use them. I don't mind the rock/paper/scissors, but this is downright silly.

I do however believe there is a chance for something to correct at least some of the problems. There is another spear attribute (spear and light_spear) that makes the unit more resistant to charges. Perhaps it can be added to make spearunits more durable against knights (or just Mounted Sergeants).

[BigTex]

Dumb question, I havent seen the unpacker released. Got a link to were I can download it?

As for the peasant problem. They have always been rather good, but in this build their morale seems a bit too high. Maybe changing that so it is lower should make things a little more balanced.

[Quillan]

It hasn't been released, but one of the mods here, Epistolary Richard, got permission from CA to release the already unpacked files. If you head over to the Mod Chat forum for M2TW, you should find the thread that has the link to the files in it. So you can download a couple of zip files that contain the already unpacked text and XML files that are used by the game, and have a look at them.

[BigTex]

It hasn't been released, but one of the mods here, Epistolary Richard, got permission from CA to release the already unpacked files. If you head over to the Mod Chat forum for M2TW, you should find the thread that has the link to the files in it. So you can download a couple of zip files that contain the already unpacked text and XML files that are used by the game, and have a look at them.

Thanks much, was wondering.

[Kraxis]

As for the peasant problem. They have always been rather good, but in this build their morale seems a bit too high. Maybe changing that so it is lower should make things a little more balanced.

No they haven't...

In STW the Ashis were connonfodder (unless you count MP in where the Honour 8 Ashis were unbeatable), and they weren't even peasants per se, but well armed infantry of another social class than samurai.

In MTW Peasants were terrible. So bad that if you modded them out of the training the enemy factions got a whole lot harder to defeat (more than in RTW). They had one single thing going for them, a good charge. But since teh chragebonus is just that, and you have to add it to the attack value, Peasants weren't really good at that either. At best they could be used to bolster the numbers of a weak army.

RTW Peasants were ther to be killed. They lasted fairly long, but hardly killed anything aside from archers and other weak melee troops.

Now however, Peasants can fight professional troops head on and expect to win half the time. Professional troops vs a bunch of downtrodden, half starved, untrained, unarmed and unarmoured peasants... Result is 50/50.
Hardly in key with the other games at all, where even the lowest troops above Peasants (Spearmen and Urban Militia comes to mind, but also Woodsmen) could cream them.

[JeffBag]

The spear and light_spear attributes are in the game, spear mainly to, well, the spear units, and light_spear to units like town militia. Its supposed to make your unit more resistant to cavalry charges, and to reflect back the charge damage. The problem is, that the unit still isn't at all resistant to cavalry charge, and while you still kill some cavalry when you reflect the charge, you still lose by cost. Playing on Huge unit size, and very hard, I set up 3 units of armoured sergeants 6 rows deep side by side, and let a single unit of mailed knights charge them, 2 rows deep. The first two lines of spears die, but killing only half of the first row of knights. To make matters worse, cavalry can gallop on the spot, held still by the first row, so, when the first row dies, the second row still charges in, and kills another 2 rows of your spearmen. The mailed always has the cost advantage, and its usually very significant to the point of being unbalanced.