Why am I so hated ?

[Negator_UK]

Playing MTW on my Laptop when away on business, leaving RTW at home

Decided on a Hard game with Late France.

Surrounded by countries who seem to just wait a few turns and attack me. Italy doesn't wait, I am invariably invaded by turn 2. The swiss follow later on. The English, Aragonese later and finally the HRE. When Spain gets a single clear shot at any territory it takes it with no delay - 4 stacks !!

Eventually I am at war with all my neighbours, no way of stopping it.

After several games where I lose or give up I find that by building spearmen and auto fighting my battles I can actually stay alive and start winning.

Still, it peeves me, why does this happen - is there no diplomatic game on Hard - is it just a slugfest for everyone when they play France ??

Note I do try to use princesses and Diplomats, but they start off in Ile de France, so not next to a port. By the time I get one to Italy They have already invaded me.

The pope never excommunicates them even when I don't fight back. When I do fight back on my own territory he excommunicates me even if we are allied (he often offers me an alliance, I always accept).

My question is - What am I doing to incurr this mass hate ??? I want to learn diplomacy, but my neighbours keep attacking me, en-mass and quickly.....

Ta

Negator.

[Agent Miles]

Welcome Negator!
I haven't had that kind of bad luck as France. Try the MTW Guide thread for the French. Lanemerkel1 gives a step by step blitz approach that should keep you out of trouble. Good luck!

[Martok]

First off, welcome to the Org!

Still, it peeves me, why does this happen - is there no diplomatic game on Hard - is it just a slugfest for everyone when they play France ??

[clip]

My question is - What am I doing to incurr this mass hate ??? I want to learn diplomacy, but my neighbours keep attacking me, en-mass and quickly.....

I'll level with you, Negator_UK--the French are probably one of the factions least suited to playing a diplomatic game. (The HRE/Germans are another faction to avoid, as they too get ganged up on a lot.)

As a general rule, factions that share a border with several other factions have a harder time getting treaties and are more likely to be attacked by them. This is especially true for larger/more powerful factions (and France in the Late period qualifies).

Factions that only border 1-3 other factions usually have an easier time of it, and their emissaries have a tendency to get more favorable replies from other rulers. Also, smaller factions are generally more successful in getting treaties, and aren't attacked as much.

EDIT: Also, having the game set to Expert probably makes it considerably more difficult as well--the AI factions generally seem to be much more aggressive at that level.

[Mithrandir]

Welcome

[Innocentius]

I think Martok summed it up well, however I feel I should add that a downside of the TW-series actually is the lack of proper diplomacy. Sure you can make alliances and pick smart targets for your attacks, but the AI reacts in a really stupid way when being offered an alliance: the bigger and the more powerful you are, the more often they will refuse, which is utterly stupid as they would, with all common sense, want to ally with the most powerful kingdom.
Also, never count on alliances. All alliances do is drop your influence if you break them, and at best they delay war with a few years. No AI faction will ever hold their alliance if their economy is doing bad, they are losing provinces to yet another faction or they just feel like being a pain in your *ss.

[Loucipher]

To add to Martok's treatise on how the larger Catholic factions are so badly gutted I'll describe somewhat devious monkey thinking of the AI that lies at the base of such situation.
As a matter of fact, the AI gangs up on factions which are vulnerable enough to be attacked by at least 3 AI opponents and are big enough so as not to provoke a Papal warning. This is precisely why HRE on Early or some other factions in Late (like the French) have such a hard time. On the other hand, factions that start out small never seem to get that much of a beating.
But what to do when you are the biggest in the lot and the others start gnawing at you?
As the fate of many a ruler teaches, never wage war on multiple fronts - that's suicide. Concentrate your efforts on just one opponent, selling your territory as dearly as you can vs the others. When you concentrate against the chosen opponent, head for terminating his royalty. Especially in earlier battles, the AI likes to risk their rulers at some point. If you catch this opportunity, make sure the enemy king dies in that battle and leaves no heir. Rebels are much more complacent
Once you have a wall of Rebels to shield you from one side, regroup your armies and go after another opponent. Usually taking just one of the gang out makes others rethink their behaviour. In my recent French campaign, I was ganged up on by HRE, Spanish and Hungarians. I decided to take out the Spaniards - they always build insane stacks of units, their Jinetes have been always royally p*ssing me off, and the Rebels provide just as good buffer zone against the Almos. In a most fortunate course of events, the Spanish king decided to lead his forces to Aquitaine. And then, my trap sprung off.
In turn 1 I immediately responded with hitting Navarre and Aragon with everything I had. And I have to admit I could throw in forces from literally everywhre, with my fleet almost everywhere and ports in nearly every province. In Aquitaine I retreated my forces to the stronghold, to keep the bad Spaniard king from moving away. In Aragon and Navarre, the Spaniards did the same. Thus, the king was trapped in Aquitaine with nowhere to retreat - God, I love those bottlenecks
On turn 2, I scheduled the castles in Navarre and Aragon to be assaulted, and hit Aquitaine with troops that I had ordered to be built last turn. The Spaniards, however, responded with hitting Navarre with 4-stack army (I had 2 stacks there), apparently trying to unlock their ruler. Too bad for them that Navarre is just a dream to defend: my forces were positioned on such steep a mountain that any enemy force trying to climb up was dispatched almost effortlessly. In the meantime, the battle in Aquitaine went exactly as planned: the Spanish were swarmed and butchered to a man. Before another turn, I was informed that "The Spanish King has been killed in battle. He had no heirs and..." the usual blahblahblah.
Now that I had the Rebel buffer zone and two defensively favourable provinces, I could shift forces against the Hungarians (they had the strongest stacks at the moment). But that war never broke out: the Hungarians got backstabbed by the Byzantines and sued for peace, while the HRE has only limited itself to a small border dispute about Friesland, which it lost eventually. Well, having a 1800-men strong Crusade marching through their land, ready to skin them alive at the faintest sight of offence, must be a royal tranquilizer for some
I have to admit that my empire was already quite built-up by then (fleets everywhere and ability to bring lots of soldiers from almost every province), but the general rule stays in place: kill one opponent's royalty, and the rest goes silent for just long enough to let you catch some breath. The same trick pulled against the English earlier has let me build fleets and structures unhindered for almost 40 years!

[caravel]

This from one of my old posts. It relates to both the English and French strategy:

The English and the French fit the category of those that need to rush their neighbours, but they are not in such a desperate situation as the one province factions, nor can they afford to rush too soon. The English really do need to wipe out, or at least suppress, the French ASAP though, because war with them is inevitable and they will end up launching a sneak attack into your vulnerable continental provinces. As the English you should push out Fyrdmen (or Feudal Sergeants if you don't have VI), UM, Hobilars and archers, and rush the French provinces ASAP. A two front attack is necessary, as this will prevent him consolidating his forces, and you should make for Ile de France early on. In the south you should take Tolouse also. After this you have them badly weakened and should be able to clean up. You need to act fast, attack assault and end it, before the pope starts to complain. Both Navarre and Aragon are good early aquisitions, because the Spanish will backdoor you if you're not careful.

As the French it's a similar strategy except that you should hit the province of Anjou to cut the English continental provinces in half, followed by Aquitaine which now cannot be relieved, making sure that flanders is well garrissoned to prevent any invasion coming from Britain. Normandy is not a priority, if you're careful about it, Brittany can take care of itself for the time being, it is more important to unite the southern provinces. On top of all of this you will have to watch the HRE as well. War with them is a bit of a lottery. For both factions shipping is important, to protect their coastlines.

As the French you can expect to be friendless, though if you completely remove the English you may see alliances starting to form. Personally I tend to push the English back to Britain and secure the French Territories. I then go for the HRE and Take Burgundy, Provence and Lorraine from them. The Spanish are also a problem. They will likely attack from the south, so it is a good idea to secure Navarra and Aragon as these are mountainous provinces that are easier for you to defend. One of your key provinces is Brittany. This province must hold out on it's own. There is a good general there, that you should give the title of Ile de France, so increase his command starts further. You should tech up the province so that archers can be trained to add to it's defence. War with the HRE is a lottery because it often occurs when you least expect it and really don't need it. If you're excommunicated you may see an HRE crusade coming your way. You can avoid getting excommunicated if you purge the English fast and then fortify and garrison Flanders to prevent them moving in there. The other priority is to build fleets to defend the coasts, this means that you don't need strong garrisons in provinces such as Normandy and Brittany, enabling you to redirect those forces to the frontier provinces. Once France is secure you should concentrate on teching up and crusading, before moving against the rest of Europe. The crusades will improve your leaders influence and produce some good heirs, and keep the military happy.

[Jxrc]

I have just had the same situation in French campaign (early/hard).

Atfer I ousted the English from the continent, it all started. I was attacked by the HRE and took Lorraine and Burgundy as a result. Then before I moved to take Provence, the Aragonese joined the show. I managed to build a ship in Toulouse that was almost immediately sunk by the Italian. Once I got rid of the Aragonese, the Spaniards attacked me in Aragon so that for quite a while I just fought defensive battles (Spaniads attacking Aquitaine or Aragon, Italians attacking from Milan and Genoa, HRE trying to recoup its losses and English trying to get Flanders). Even though I had quite a few ships I was not making any money because nobody was eligible to trade with me so that I could not build anything except troops to make up for my losses in battles (only exception being due to some cash injection when ransoning prisoners). After many beatings, the German forces were so thin that it became quite easy to add Friesland, Saxony, Franconia and Swabia to my holdings. That gave me a border with Polish Silesia and the Poles attacked Franconia almost immediately (my army being made of many units of calvalry and theirs of almost javeliners that was quite easy to get the "skilled defenders" trait)....

Now (it's about 1195) the Spanish king is dead and I have a buffer between me and the Almos. I fear it will not be a great help since the Almos have done nothing since the start of the game apart generating stacks of AUM and are butchering the rebels ... I am also pretty sure that the Danes familial cavalry will also attack Saxony sooner or later ... Hopefully I have started making a money cause I have got enough ships to trade with the Almo, Sicilian and Egyptians (the drawback being that I can forget about crusades if I do not want to go bankrupt) so that I can upgrade my army in order to face the AUM when the time comes (my current army is mostly made of spearmen and holibars that are bound to be butchered if faced with AUM that are lead by a decent general) ... Seems that total domination is the only option now (except that perhaps the arival of the Golden Horde will get the Poles off my back) ...

[Loucipher]

Jxrc: Your situation with the French is just oh-so-typical, if this is any consolation for you
For me, the beginning has been all the same, except that I fared a bit better against the English in the first place (I have described it in the Guides section). Soon after I have finished quelling rebellions all the way up to Scotland, I had a showdown with HRE and the Aragonese. Fortunately, the Aragonese were still only single province kingdom (when your neighbours are Spanish and Almohads, who churn out stacks of troops at a mass-production rate, the Aragonese can only dream of expanding into the Iberian peninsula), and it took only one decisive blow to write them off once their initial attack on Toulouse was repelled (thank God for that cliff on the battlefield! ). The HRE, on the other hand, can rarely afford to support vast armies and its attacks are inherently weak: masses of Spearmen and UM, followed by assorted peasantry rabble. Besides, they usually get into dispute with some eastern kingdoms (my compatriots, the Polish, are excellent at backstabbing HRE every now and then, as are the Hungarians ) and this further turns their attention elsewhere.
Once you deal with your archnemesis, the English and establish an easy to defend 4-province border with HRE and the rest of Europe, you need to take out the Spaniards. Sometimes the Almohads will do it for you first, but more often than not the Spanish manage to slug it out and it takes a backstab to bring them to their knees. After you dispose of them, you can continue south to drive the Muslims from along the African coast, if you feel like it and you don't need to revert your troops to Europe to punish some troublemakers. In GA mode, this has added benefit of providing direct route to Outremer provinces, getting you into the thick of the fight for the Crusade objective provinces. If you manage to hold Egypt and tech it up by 1150 (especially build a Chapter House!), then you are basically set for grabbing all Glorious Achievement goals within the time limit: Tripoli should fall before 1160 if you want that Krak des Chevaliers built on time, and the other provinces can be literally spammed with Crusades if you manage a good standing with the old chap in Rome (given that you've been probably beating the living hell out of assorted Muslims for a few decades now, while pretending to be nice to fellow Christians, he should be almost granting you free Crusades ). By the end of the Early, your standing should be fearsome: all Outremer provinces painted Regal Blue, lots of Templars and Order Foots everywhere, a powerful defensive building - a Citadel, no less, and by its own proud name! - in the heartland of the Crusade objective area, and your armies poised to strike at the richest realms in the area - the Turks and the Byzantines. Then, you may hold back a little and let the Golden Horde stir up the pot a bit before you come crushing upon that turmoil and sink it beneath the tranquilizing wave of Regal Blue This about wraps up your proceedings in High and leaving Late for dealing with the rest of the Christians - including the mad Papist (who can even be disposed of much earlier, especially if Italy chooses to pull the wrong string in the meantime ). The Lancers and other iron-clad knights would fare poorly in the desert anyway, and if you save them for European conquest, they'll be your workhorses (literally!) when it comes to disposing of petty kingdoms of Christendom.
Wow, did I really write a guide on the way?

[caravel]

Now (it's about 1195) the Spanish king is dead and I have a buffer between me and the Almos. I fear it will not be a great help since the Almos have done nothing since the start of the game apart generating stacks of AUM and are butchering the rebels ... I am also pretty sure that the Danes familial cavalry will also attack Saxony sooner or later ... Hopefully I have started making a money cause I have got enough ships to trade with the Almo, Sicilian and Egyptians (the drawback being that I can forget about crusades if I do not want to go bankrupt) so that I can upgrade my army in order to face the AUM when the time comes (my current army is mostly made of spearmen and holibars that are bound to be butchered if faced with AUM that are lead by a decent general) ... Seems that total domination is the only option now (except that perhaps the arival of the Golden Horde will get the Poles off my back) ...

You need Feudal Sergeants under a good general to pin the AUM while you flank them with Militia Sergeants or Early Royal Knights. That is about the cheapest way to do it in the early period. In the high period CMAA or High Royal Knights do the job well, but pinning them with CS is still a good idea. Any other units will be turned into mincemeat. Weakening them with a few volleys from your archers will help also, but due to the AUM's armour and large shield missiles aren't quite as effective. When pinning sword infantry like AUM with spears you have to get a move on because the spears cavalry defense bonus is not effective.

[Jxrc]

Jxrc: Your situation with the French is just oh-so-typical, if this is any consolation for you .

I found that campaign a bit discouraging at some point ... Always a new war each time I get a new neighbourg .... I have not played that many games as the French (about 3 or 4) and that's the first one where I have that kind of HRE scenario. In the others, it was rather quite after I got rid of the English except a few attack from the HRE (perhaps annihilating the english is the key?) so that I could easily build ship crusade to my liking and build a citadel in Palestine once I had dispatched the Egyptian peasants ... But in this campaign it is really the HRE scenario when you end up at war with everyone (the difference is that you do no have much problem keeping you kingdom intact even with dodgy heirs - I had an inbred no star as my first heir and did not manage to get rid of him before he became king but Ypres, Bouillon etc. do the trick nicely).

You need Feudal Sergeants under a good general to pin the AUM while you flank them with Militia Sergeants or Early Royal Knights.

Personally I prefer to use plenty of jinettes and charge from all sides once I run out of javelin (militia sergeant sometimes run always too fast). FS can stand their ground for a while (but not very long) thanks to their good morale but they do get slaughtered even charging downhill (unless the AI general is a crak-brained coward). Could just try to mass troops on my south border to make them think twice before the attack, wait until 1205 and get plenty of arbs (but given the history of the campaign I doubt anything I can do will dissuade them ...)

[Negator_UK]

Hmm, 10 replies in 24 hours, this is one HOT forum...

Well, its good to know the computer is the moron, not me, and that my problems are not unique.

I'm determined to persevere with this french lark as it would be chicken just to change nations to avoid the gang-ups.

I've now cleared defended my own back yard sucessfully and am slowly moving east. I try not to wipe out factions as resurgences hurt, but the HRE got finished off by poland after I gave them a good kicking.

Meanwhile the english are now the welsh only apart from a garrison in aquitane that will soon be french . The Aragonese are soon to be sicilian only and the italians are only cretan. The Pope will be a neapolitan very soon too.

Spain is half french and going down and Hungary has attacked me. The swiss are still swiss and will never be anything else (except maybe dead one day)

Still, I'm at the stage of the game when its now their fatal mistake to attack me , not mine to be in their way.



Poland are my new eastern neighbours, they haven't attacked me yet, but I'm sure its just a matter of time.

I'm not sure if I'll win as I know there a secret clock ( I vaguely ran into it a few years ago when I was playing on normal), but no-one else is going to win that's for sure.

Too bad about the diplomacy game, maybe it will improve on MTW2, not that I'll be getting that just yet, MTW still seems like good fun.

One thing I have noticed is that trade only seems to work with other powers (ie, my provinces don't trade with each other) - the more of the map I occupy the more it looks like my income will have to come from farming and conquest.

[Martok]

Way to go, man. Glad to see you've bestowed your enemies with the butt-kicking(s) they so richly deserve.

One thing I have noticed is that trade only seems to work with other powers (ie, my provinces don't trade with each other) - the more of the map I occupy the more it looks like my income will have to come from farming and conquest.

You are correct. Trade income from inland provinces comes internal trade only. That's why coastal provinces with trade goods are so valuable, since the real money comes from trading with other factions provinces that have ports.

[caravel]

One thing I have noticed is that trade only seems to work with other powers (ie, my provinces don't trade with each other) - the more of the map I occupy the more it looks like my income will have to come from farming and conquest.

To expand on what Martok has said, those landlocked provinces with trade goods, produce 1 trade income only (the equivalent of trading all of those good every year with 1 rival faction province by sea). You cannot trade with neighbouring provinces over land. Because of this the only landlocked trade goods provinces worth building traders in are those such as Syria that (eventually) have 3 trade goods. Any landlocked province with less than 3 trade goods isn't worth the money.

[Jxrc]

One thing I have noticed is that trade only seems to work with other powers (ie, my provinces don't trade with each other) - the more of the map I occupy the more it looks like my income will have to come from farming and conquest.

The income generated by trade is not really a trading income but the proceed of custom taxes so that you do not get anything by merely connecting two of your onw ports, your kingdom being a bit like a predecessor of the single market (pretty inaccurate historically but whatever). You just get income as a result of trade by taxing international trade (to and from other faction but exports by AI factions are not that common except sometimes from Italy) with other factions (no tax on trade with rebels ). A port with a mearchant house that is not connected with another faction's port only generate taxes on local trade (same as inland provinces). Regarding the utility to creat mearchant houses in landlocked provinces, I do not fully agree with Manco Capac since building the first level will costs you 800 florins for a steady income of about 30 with one trade good so that your investements repay themselves in thirty years. Not the yield of the century and probably not something to build immediately but a few of those can help in the long-term (they could even help you to get the trader virtue but that V&V does not seem to work very well ... sometimes you get it out of the blue, sometimes you build every trading infrastructure available and don't get it at all). I agree that upgrading a landlocked mearchant house to a higher level is not worth the trouble.

[Vladimir]

It is if you start in Early. 100 years for a return on investment, no problem.

[Negator_UK]

I can definitely confirm that the AI pretty much attacks on sight (or maybe it can smell my humanity...). I broke through hungarian lines and egypt was behind them, got attacked by them the following turn.

I think the only reason poland didn't attack me immediately is because it was finishing off the HRE. When they were gone, urrghh !

I'll save money in future by building fewer envoys, bishops make better scouts as they convert the populace while they are scouting ;-)

[caravel]

I do not fully agree with Manco Capac since building the first level will costs you 800 florins for a steady income of about 30 with one trade good so that your investements repay themselves in thirty years. Not the yield of the century and probably not something to build immediately but a few of those can help in the long-term (they could even help you to get the trader virtue but that V&V does not seem to work very well ... sometimes you get it out of the blue, sometimes you build every trading infrastructure available and don't get it at all). I agree that upgrading a landlocked mearchant house to a higher level is not worth the trouble.

Referring to a previous post I made on this subject:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=124

This is the relevant part:

Starting up a Russian/High campaign I built the Trader in Muscovy for 800 florins, the only trade good, furs, is worth 20 florins. The startpos file sets this as 40. Upgrading to the Merchant cost me 1000 forins and I'm now making 24 florins. The Merchants guild costs me 1200 and now I'm making 30 florins. The final upgrade, the Master Merchant, costing 1400 florins has raised the income from furs to 34 florins, but not the 40 in the startpos text file. So is this some kind of seed number or a percentage? Is it 40 percent of something + whatever the traders and their upgrades give, or something else? I'm not sure. In total the outlay was 4400 for the trading buildings, so the Russians just need to wait 220 years for it to pay for itself then they sit back and enjoy the 34 florins per year.

Probably an extreme example but it's still there. Like yourself I may build and upgrade the traders for landlocked once my faction is so stinking rich that they don't need to worry about it, but that really defeats the object.

Even if I'd only built the first trader. I'd still be waiting 40 years paying it off before I start to make 20 florins per year. When looking at this I use the same reasoning as I would when considering building farming upgrades in Arabia, Sinai, Sahara or Cyrenacia. A landlocked province with only two goods may be worthwhile and those with 3 goods are.

[Jxrc]

Referring to a previous post I made on this subject:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=124

Could not agree more

Like yourself I may build and upgrade the traders for landlocked once my faction is so stinking rich that they don't need to worry about it, but that really defeats the object.

Yep. Trade by land is badly treated in the game, especially if one remembers that wealth (due to trade) created by cities without access to the sea like Lyons.... Imagine the possibilty to trade with adjacent provinces whiith which you are not at war and that no bloody single invicible dromon ( ) can disrupt ....

I always build the first level farm upgrade in all provinces just to be able to build a horsebreeder (I usually end up with my first master horsebreeder in that kind of provinces since there is pretty much nothing elso worth building in those). I have also heard of a trick consisting in building a 20% upgrade in the desert province, destroying it, rebuildling, etc in order to get the V&V "Steward" but I am not sure that actually works (even if it does that is really a gameplay exploit if you ask me ).

Cheers

[Martok]

I have also heard of a trick consisting in building a 20% upgrade in the desert province, destroying it, rebuildling, etc in order to get the V&V "Steward" but I am not sure that actually works (even if it does that is really a gameplay exploit if you ask me ).

I have heard of this as well, and it does in fact work. One of my buddies tried it out during a Scottish campaign (XL), and was able to reproduce the effect. Because of having to manually build & rebuild the farm(s), however, it's tedious to pull off--not to mention cheesy! Still, it will give you the Steward trait if you're willing to commit the time and excess micromanagement.