Militia Pikemen: Useless?

[Kobal2fr]

Stats are misleading. They are misleading across the board, but nowhere as glaringly as when pikes are concerned.

The point is that when the unit card says "very long spears", it doesn't f*ck about. Nothing will ever touch a formed-up, braced pike unit from the front, neither cav charge nor badass gothic footknight. It just doesn't happen. They all get a facefull of pike, while the pikemen are left unharmed.

The low stats are to even things out considering that huge advantage. They are to make sure pikemen don't kill too fast, that they're vulnerable to crossbows and (as I found out with glee while taking Bruges) ballista bolts, and that they get absolutely cheesed (it's like creamed, only longer ) when attacked from the flanks or sides.

In city defense, as long as you have 4 of them (to cover all entries to the city square and make sure no sneaky cav goes all the way around to charge their backs) they are almost invulnerable - to a point of course, and of course pike units with better stats fare better than basic 3/2 pike militia (Tercios and Swiss Pikemen come to mind), but even the militia is danged hardy to keep anyone pinned for ever while the towers & archers do their thing.

[BeeSting]

Stats are misleading. They are misleading across the board, but nowhere as glaringly as when pikes are concerned.

The point is that when the unit card says "very long spears", it doesn't f*ck about. Nothing will ever touch a formed-up, braced pike unit from the front, neither cav charge nor badass gothic footknight. It just doesn't happen. They all get a facefull of pike, while the pikemen are left unharmed.

The low stats are to even things out considering that huge advantage. They are to make sure pikemen don't kill too fast, that they're vulnerable to crossbows and (as I found out with glee while taking Bruges) ballista bolts, and that they get absolutely cheesed (it's like creamed, only longer ) when attacked from the flanks or sides.

In city defense, as long as you have 4 of them (to cover all entries to the city square and make sure no sneaky cav goes all the way around to charge their backs) they are almost invulnerable - to a point of course, and of course pike units with better stats fare better than basic 3/2 pike militia (Tercios and Swiss Pikemen come to mind), but even the militia is danged hardy to keep anyone pinned for ever while the towers & archers do their thing.

Yes, in Brave Heart the cavs get wasted, but you have to think about the fact that these spears are not fixed on stone walls but are carried by people. Many times the blunt of the impact and weight cause them to break and not penetrate armor.

[R'as al Ghul]

The point is that when the unit card says "very long spears", it doesn't f*ck about. Nothing will ever touch a formed-up, braced pike unit from the front, neither cav charge nor badass gothic footknight. It just doesn't happen. They all get a facefull of pike, while the pikemen are left unharmed.

Is this from your experience in campaign battles?
I did a custom battle on VH. I took Venice with 4 Militia Pikemen, 4 Armoured Sergeants, 1 Heavy Cav General. I build up a line with Pikemen centered and Sergeants covering their flanks. The enemy was France and had he same amount of units but all Heavy Cav. Chivalric Knights, Lancers etc.

The AI set up its line parallel to mine and waited. I moved one Pike unit slightly forward, AI moves slightly but stops again. Our positions are almost unaltered. A center Pike is slightly advanced. Not before I move one of the flank sergeants to attack one of his flank Cav does he charge, but when the Cav charge finally thunders against my line the battle is over quite quickly without the expected horrendous losses for Cav.
I found this rather puzzling. The AI seemed reluctant to charge the line maybe fearing heavy losses but when it did it didn't even have to pull back and recharge, it just finished me off in melee.
I expected that at least those cav units charging the pikes would be annihilated or at least routed so that the pikes could go over to the flanks and finish the other cav. As it was, the Cav was quite unimpressed and destroyed me.

My bottom line is that I don't understand the unit matchups at all.

R'as

[JeffBag]

The pikes will annihilate the first row of cavalry, but when it is recovering, the rows from the back would usually get into the formation and force the pikes to draw swords. Pikemen only cost 150 though, so they definately destroy cavalry very cost-effectively.

[R'as al Ghul]

Pikemen only cost 150 though, so they definately destroy cavalry very cost-effectively.

What kind of test do I have to set up to see pikes destroy Cav?

[Kobal2fr]

Is this from your experience in campaign battles?
I did a custom battle on VH. I took Venice with 4 Militia Pikemen, 4 Armoured Sergeants, 1 Heavy Cav General. I build up a line with Pikemen centered and Sergeants covering their flanks. The enemy was France and had he same amount of units but all Heavy Cav. Chivalric Knights, Lancers etc.

The AI set up its line parallel to mine and waited. I moved one Pike unit slightly forward, AI moves slightly but stops again. Our positions are almost unaltered. A center Pike is slightly advanced. Not before I move one of the flank sergeants to attack one of his flank Cav does he charge, but when the Cav charge finally thunders against my line the battle is over quite quickly without the expected horrendous losses for Cav.
I found this rather puzzling. The AI seemed reluctant to charge the line maybe fearing heavy losses but when it did it didn't even have to pull back and recharge, it just finished me off in melee.
I expected that at least those cav units charging the pikes would be annihilated or at least routed so that the pikes could go over to the flanks and finish the other cav. As it was, the Cav was quite unimpressed and destroyed me.

My bottom line is that I don't understand the unit matchups at all.

R'as

Yes, my experience is all campaign-based. And the pikes have always been on the VH other side too, which may be an important factor to consider.

I admit I've never fought pikes out in the open, only in cities, and cav just don't work in cities in the first place, so throwing them against pikes would have been... uninformed . But for example, Flemish Pikemen have held against every kind of inf I've thrown at them from the front - feudal dismounted kanigets, heavy sarges, longbow yeomen, überpeasants, heavy billmen, Italian Spears, Moorish urban militia, Vikings and Huskarls... the Flemish just stand there, kill them, and take like 5 losses while killing a whole unit. I've taken Bruges a number of times with a number of factions, and the only thing that ever broke their pikewalls are either charging knights in their backs while they're busy from the front, or pushing a ballista down the street and let it skewer their nice, tight block.

[Musashi]

Pikes hold and repel cavalry brilliantly in my experience... I don't know what people are doing wrong to have them fail.

[Kraxis]

Yes, my experience is all campaign-based. And the pikes have always been on the VH other side too, which may be an important factor to consider.

I admit I've never fought pikes out in the open, only in cities, and cav just don't work in cities in the first place, so throwing them against pikes would have been... uninformed . But for example, Flemish Pikemen have held against every kind of inf I've thrown at them from the front - feudal dismounted kanigets, heavy sarges, longbow yeomen, überpeasants, heavy billmen, Italian Spears, Moorish urban militia, Vikings and Huskarls... the Flemish just stand there, kill them, and take like 5 losses while killing a whole unit. I've taken Bruges a number of times with a number of factions, and the only thing that ever broke their pikewalls are either charging knights in their backs while they're busy from the front, or pushing a ballista down the street and let it skewer their nice, tight block.

Or you can fight them on the walls. Sure the losses will be great, but they won't present an unpenetrable block but individuals with swords.