What happened to my beloved Swiss

[CrownOfSwords]

Anyone that would like to mod them into a faction would have my greatest gratitude, I miss my huge armies of pikemen and halbierers.

[IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer]

Well, Swiss Pikemen are still avaliable as mercenary units in the late era in the Germany area.

[geala]

In 1080 the "Swiss" were truely "Germans". They were part of the Imperium Romanum (later called Sacrum Imperium Romanum = HRE). They counted themselves among the "upper German countries" (oberdeutsche Lande) maybe till the war of 1499. From then on the Swiss Confederation was really independent in fact but became a true state of its own first in 1648 with the peace of Münster and Osnabrück.

Because there are no eras in M2TW it would be another unhistoric touch (added to the many existing) to make the Confederation a faction too early on. But it would indeed be very nice to field the mighty confederate armies of the late 15th century!

[Vintage318]

I'm pretty sure during the period where this game takes place, Swiss were more noted for their mercenaries due to geopolitical circumstances etc. The time where this game's campaign starts, it's pretty much safe to say Swiss wasn't even united. It was a bunch of little states.

[Musashi]

If you want something similar, try Portugal... They have an excellent pike unit (Aventuros) and late game they get Musketeers... I think they may be the only faction in the whole game who get a super-elite pike unit and muskets to back them up.

[dopp]

Aventuros are better than Swiss pikemen. Same stats, partial plate armor (Swiss are unarmored). They are impetuous though, which causes a little problem. Why pikemen, who rely on formation, should then be so eager to break it is a complete mystery to me.

[Vlad Tzepes]

. Why pikemen, who rely on formation, should then be so eager to break it is a complete mystery to me.

Maybe they really-really hate their job and dream about becoming somebody different

And Swiss were in fact German subjects... until late XV century... Remember Wilhelm Tell? (his protest sparked a struggle for independence and, finally, The Swiss Federation)

[Musashi]

Impetuous or not they're still deadly (Borderline frightening actually... With those stats they need a weakness lol).

I'd actually have to say that Portugal is the faction for an infantry commander. Pike Militia and Crossbow Militia at the start, Aventuros and Pavise Crossbowmen or even Musketeers later, and they have Jinettes, which are well up in the top 3 Light Cavalry units in the game (And if you're a late period style pike and crossbow (Or pike and musket) commander, you want light cavalry).

They don't even get shafted when it comes to heavy cav... I mean they don't have Lancer or Gothic Knight quality cav but they don't suck either. I'm not exactly sure what their weakness is... Their artillery is fine too (Culverin, Cannon, Basilisk)... The only thing you could possibly complain about is the lack of a Serpentine :)

[geala]

Being impetuous as pikemen is one of the many oddities of the game. I will mod it out.

Never heard of a strong pike force in case of Portugal (but I'm not very well informed about that part of Europe). Surely I will make Swiss pikemen the best in the game because in my opinion nobody could match them.

To the Swiss: they were not subject to Germans, they were Germans themselves as the people who first swore an oath to fight for their old liberties (which were granted by the German emperor) spoke in a German tongue. The three original cantons were part of the Habsburg estates and the struggle of "Wilhelm Tell" (who never existed) was against the Habsburg dukes.
In theory the Confederation (it was not a Federation, the Swiss united to have not to unite too much) was part of the empire till 1648.

[dopp]

Being impetuous as pikemen is one of the many oddities of the game. I will mod it out.

Never heard of a strong pike force in case of Portugal (but I'm not very well informed about that part of Europe). Surely I will make Swiss pikemen the best in the game because in my opinion nobody could match them.

Having impetuous pikemen is one of the reasons I suspect the pike formations are not working as intended. As it is now any movement fatally disrupts the formation and getting pikemen to attack rather than simply stand there waiting for charges is rather iffy. The phalanxes in RTW could move at speed with pikes lowered. Here ordering them to move results in the whole unit upping their weapons and then crowding around like schoolkids until they reach the new locations. There's no right/left turn command for sideways movement at all. If the pikemen were intended to hold together like the phalanxes, then having impetuous pikemen who really like taking the battle to the enemy is a bit more believable. It just seems suicidal right now. No shield and poor armor makes pikeman a lousy swordsman.

This is just my opinion, of course. Maybe pikemen were not intended to be as mobile as phalanxes. Someone should test the impetuous pikemen and see if they really break ranks and charge.

You did get the Swiss Confederation erupting in MTW when/if the correct settlements revolted. Swiss Armored Pikemen (SAPs) were some of the toughest units in the game, comparable to JHI. SAPs were often generals' bodyguards and thus had very high valor (exp) ratings, making them nearly invincible.

[Spendius]

What happened to my beloved Swiss ?

They got cheesed...

Sorry.

[geala]

Having impetuous pikemen is one of the reasons I suspect the pike formations are not working as intended. As it is now any movement fatally disrupts the formation and getting pikemen to attack rather than simply stand there waiting for charges is rather iffy. The phalanxes in RTW could move at speed with pikes lowered. Here ordering them to move results in the whole unit upping their weapons and then crowding around like schoolkids until they reach the new locations. There's no right/left turn command for sideways movement at all. If the pikemen were intended to hold together like the phalanxes, then having impetuous pikemen who really like taking the battle to the enemy is a bit more believable. It just seems suicidal right now. No shield and poor armor makes pikeman a lousy swordsman.

This is just my opinion, of course. Maybe pikemen were not intended to be as mobile as phalanxes. Someone should test the impetuous pikemen and see if they really break ranks and charge.

You did get the Swiss Confederation erupting in MTW when/if the correct settlements revolted. Swiss Armored Pikemen (SAPs) were some of the toughest units in the game, comparable to JHI. SAPs were often generals' bodyguards and thus had very high valor (exp) ratings, making them nearly invincible.

I concur. Pikemen does not function in the way they should. They are really good in defence but suck when attacking. That is not fine. Every half-trained peasant can grap a pike and form a strong defensive formation. What the Swiss invented (back) was the aggressive use of the pike. Given proper landscape, the strong discipline and the superior fighting moral of the Swiss Gewalthaufen could wipe out nearly everything. That this was not easy to achieve is shown by the great defeat the Scottish suffered at Flodden Edge trying to cope Swiss tactics without proper training and moral, but with a bloody little ditch at the location.

Best thing would be to give some pikemen (f.e. Swiss, Landsknechts, Tercio Pikemen etc.) special battle commands which not every pikemen unit (esp. militia units) can obey.

The pike was one of the core weapons of the time between 1470 and 1600 and should get some love from CA or modders.

[troymclure]

Swiss armoured pikeman from the orignal MTW were awesome. I remember there was mod where you could play as them. I'm pretty sure it made your General a SAP and with the way valour and generals worked back it made for an insane combination.
RIP SAP. :(

[dopp]

The more elite pikemen are highly_trained, which is supposed to affect their response time and formation-keeping ability. I'm testing to see if it really makes any difference.

Yes, the Swiss didn't have cavalry bodyguards in MTW. They had SAPs. Valor 9 generals with SAP bodyguards. That's like 3 gold chevrons in M2TW. The Byz had katatanks as their bodyguards. I had so many ex-princes with valor 7-9 katatank bodyguards that I never had to train a single unit of regular ones even in my longest campaigns.

Pikemen in MTW were horrible. You were better off with Gothic sergeants.

[Musashi]

The one thing I miss from MTW was the variety in Bodyguard units... Sure all the Catholics got their silly Noble Knights... But Byz had Katas, Russia had Boyars (Who were really, really cool even though some people didn't like them... and the best part was they came in packs of 80 instead of 40 ;) ), Turks had basically Kataphract Archers (They called them something else, but effectively that was what they were)... I liked that... It's kind of lame that they're all the same in M2.

[troymclure]

That's right, that's why boyars where so uber in medieval. I also completely forgot about all the different bodyguards and the fact that you kept the unit after the general died. Fond memories of destroying rebels playing early russia and using only your king and his sons to do it. :)

I can see why they use the current system but the other one did make for some cool times as well.

[Mailman653]

And don't forget, the Papal States have the Swiss guard, an elite unit.

[CrownOfSwords]

Yeah, idk im finding the game irritating until they fix all the animation glitches. Yeah i had play a campaign as the papal states to play around with the swiss guard. Id still like to see someone mod them as a faction though.

[Corax]

regarding the swiss: the foundation was a renewal of an alliance between 3 small regions around lake lucerne in 1291. this was an alliance against the greedy habsburg lords. they made pacts with other cities and valley settlements and formed the "eight old towns" federation by 1353. We were part of the HRE until 1499 (not in a formal, but in a practical sense, since emperor Maximilian I. lost most of his influence after the so called "peace of Basel".

The myth of the unbeatable swiss (they were feared for their ferociousness and discipline even after heavy losses) ended with the federations bitter loss at the battle of Marigniano in 1515 against France (and thus ended their position as a political and military powerhouse in western europe).

I badly miss my SAP and halberdiers from MTW1... but I AM swiss, so I might be biased :)

[andrewt]

I echo the bodyguard sentiments. Even in RTW, the bodyguards were different. I think the British and Egyptians had chariot bodyguards. The Roman bodyguards had javelins, I think. I forgot the bodyguards for Pontus and Parthia but I think they were a bit different as well.

I also miss the old kataphraktoi. I think the ones in MTW2 are inferior to most of the later Catholic knights in stats. In MTW, they were equivalent to chivalric in stats, I believe, but slower. However, you do get them early.

[Kobal2fr]

The one thing I miss from MTW was the variety in Bodyguard units... Sure all the Catholics got their silly Noble Knights... But Byz had Katas, Russia had Boyars (Who were really, really cool even though some people didn't like them... and the best part was they came in packs of 80 instead of 40 ;) ), Turks had basically Kataphract Archers (They called them something else, but effectively that was what they were)... I liked that... It's kind of lame that they're all the same in M2.

Not only that, but any unit could house a general.

I remember, playing as the French in Early, the first Urban Militia you built always had Godefroy de Bouillon (4 star general, and historical French hero) as its leader. Any unit could get command stars as long as it acted as a general unit in a won battle.

With the RTW engine, either nothing happens, or you get "Man of the Hour" and boom, instant heavy cav, out of the blue. It's disconcerting.

I liked having super generals in totally useless units. I've had conquering lords born from peasant garrison units being sieged again and again and again. Made for a whole other point of view on warfare - truth is, most generals were not William Gibson Claymore-Swingin' Gladiator, they were just the brains behind the brunt. Alexander Nevsky wasn't a horse-walloper, he was Town Militia at best, AND a tactical genius nevertheless. Harald Hardrada was a good general who never fought on horseback and so on... but in RTW/M2TW, every named general is heavy cav. We lost something there, I think.

[Musashi]

Yeah I liked how any unit could be a general too (If my memory isn't going, didn't they retain their original unit type even if they ended up being adopted?)... Since I love playing an infantry army I'm often irked by the need to bring a unit of Heavy Cav when I'd prefer all infantry and Light Cav.

[dopp]

Though it is kind of wierd when your conquering general steadfastly refuses to abandon his original mob of peasant bodyguards, forcing you to drag them along everywhere... him upgrading to a cavalry bodyguard in RTW onwards does make a bit of sense.

[Kraxis]

I liked the fact that the catholic bodyguards were 1 HP and only 20 strong regardless of size. 20 2 HP is strong enough for my tastes, while the insane 59 2 HP very heavy cavalry we can get now is downright too strong.

I don't like the fact that generals themselves often form the most potent and used unit in the army. After all their men regenerate, while eth MTW bodyguards had to be retrained. I remember I had quite a few generals running around with no bodyguard at all, just that single man on his horse.

[Musashi]

After all their men regenerate, while eth MTW bodyguards had to be retrained.

Though this had the obvious drawback that your general's bodyguard units were un-retrainable for much of the early game. It took forever to get to the point where you could retrain the Catholic bodyguard units.

[Kraxis]

Yes... but that just made sure that you didn't just throw them in unless it was crucial. They were generals first, fighters second.
Besides you only needed the lowest of the knightly buildings to retrain them, you got them even before Feudal Knights. So basically any place had them very fast. Or you could get them very fast...

[Frantz]

I think the swiss arent in the game because they will be the Add-on

[CrownOfSwords]

lol i like how my swiss discussion turned into stuff about bodyguards, i totally agree though i hate how all the factions have like the same bodyguards essentially its bs. I would also like the damned general to stay in the back of his guards or atleast make them much harder to kill gets irritating seeing my general die charging. Im going to try out the portugal suggestion I havent started a campaign as them yet. But yeah I dont really care about the accuracy with the swiss thing, make them start as a vassal to the HRE or something i just wanna play my swiss. And yes i am swiss hence the obsession.

[Kraxis]

How about not using the general in a frontline service against units that can potentially kill him? The last thing we need right now are stronger bodyguards. They are already 2 HP and stronger than most heavy cavalry statswise...

I tend to build up my generals, letting other units weaken teh enemy or let them deal with the dangeorus enemies, while my general deal with archers, peasants (can be dangerous though) and the like. Then when he has gotten a few good virtues to his HP or morale, I begin taking on stronger enemies, though never units that has the potential to defeat the general quickly. That means spears in general, unless they are marching.

[CrownOfSwords]

No but ive seen my general die in some ridiculous instances like charging trebuchet crewsmen and just watching the animation of him flying off the horse give me a break. Im sick of these over powered crewsmen as well those little peasant bastards should be fleeing like crazy before any knights even charged them.