What happened to my beloved Swiss

[geala]

Being impetuous as pikemen is one of the many oddities of the game. I will mod it out.

Never heard of a strong pike force in case of Portugal (but I'm not very well informed about that part of Europe). Surely I will make Swiss pikemen the best in the game because in my opinion nobody could match them.

To the Swiss: they were not subject to Germans, they were Germans themselves as the people who first swore an oath to fight for their old liberties (which were granted by the German emperor) spoke in a German tongue. The three original cantons were part of the Habsburg estates and the struggle of "Wilhelm Tell" (who never existed) was against the Habsburg dukes.
In theory the Confederation (it was not a Federation, the Swiss united to have not to unite too much) was part of the empire till 1648.

[dopp]

Being impetuous as pikemen is one of the many oddities of the game. I will mod it out.

Never heard of a strong pike force in case of Portugal (but I'm not very well informed about that part of Europe). Surely I will make Swiss pikemen the best in the game because in my opinion nobody could match them.

Having impetuous pikemen is one of the reasons I suspect the pike formations are not working as intended. As it is now any movement fatally disrupts the formation and getting pikemen to attack rather than simply stand there waiting for charges is rather iffy. The phalanxes in RTW could move at speed with pikes lowered. Here ordering them to move results in the whole unit upping their weapons and then crowding around like schoolkids until they reach the new locations. There's no right/left turn command for sideways movement at all. If the pikemen were intended to hold together like the phalanxes, then having impetuous pikemen who really like taking the battle to the enemy is a bit more believable. It just seems suicidal right now. No shield and poor armor makes pikeman a lousy swordsman.

This is just my opinion, of course. Maybe pikemen were not intended to be as mobile as phalanxes. Someone should test the impetuous pikemen and see if they really break ranks and charge.

You did get the Swiss Confederation erupting in MTW when/if the correct settlements revolted. Swiss Armored Pikemen (SAPs) were some of the toughest units in the game, comparable to JHI. SAPs were often generals' bodyguards and thus had very high valor (exp) ratings, making them nearly invincible.

[Spendius]

What happened to my beloved Swiss ?

They got cheesed...

Sorry.

[geala]

Having impetuous pikemen is one of the reasons I suspect the pike formations are not working as intended. As it is now any movement fatally disrupts the formation and getting pikemen to attack rather than simply stand there waiting for charges is rather iffy. The phalanxes in RTW could move at speed with pikes lowered. Here ordering them to move results in the whole unit upping their weapons and then crowding around like schoolkids until they reach the new locations. There's no right/left turn command for sideways movement at all. If the pikemen were intended to hold together like the phalanxes, then having impetuous pikemen who really like taking the battle to the enemy is a bit more believable. It just seems suicidal right now. No shield and poor armor makes pikeman a lousy swordsman.

This is just my opinion, of course. Maybe pikemen were not intended to be as mobile as phalanxes. Someone should test the impetuous pikemen and see if they really break ranks and charge.

You did get the Swiss Confederation erupting in MTW when/if the correct settlements revolted. Swiss Armored Pikemen (SAPs) were some of the toughest units in the game, comparable to JHI. SAPs were often generals' bodyguards and thus had very high valor (exp) ratings, making them nearly invincible.

I concur. Pikemen does not function in the way they should. They are really good in defence but suck when attacking. That is not fine. Every half-trained peasant can grap a pike and form a strong defensive formation. What the Swiss invented (back) was the aggressive use of the pike. Given proper landscape, the strong discipline and the superior fighting moral of the Swiss Gewalthaufen could wipe out nearly everything. That this was not easy to achieve is shown by the great defeat the Scottish suffered at Flodden Edge trying to cope Swiss tactics without proper training and moral, but with a bloody little ditch at the location.

Best thing would be to give some pikemen (f.e. Swiss, Landsknechts, Tercio Pikemen etc.) special battle commands which not every pikemen unit (esp. militia units) can obey.

The pike was one of the core weapons of the time between 1470 and 1600 and should get some love from CA or modders.

[troymclure]

Swiss armoured pikeman from the orignal MTW were awesome. I remember there was mod where you could play as them. I'm pretty sure it made your General a SAP and with the way valour and generals worked back it made for an insane combination.
RIP SAP. :(

[dopp]

The more elite pikemen are highly_trained, which is supposed to affect their response time and formation-keeping ability. I'm testing to see if it really makes any difference.

Yes, the Swiss didn't have cavalry bodyguards in MTW. They had SAPs. Valor 9 generals with SAP bodyguards. That's like 3 gold chevrons in M2TW. The Byz had katatanks as their bodyguards. I had so many ex-princes with valor 7-9 katatank bodyguards that I never had to train a single unit of regular ones even in my longest campaigns.

Pikemen in MTW were horrible. You were better off with Gothic sergeants.

[Musashi]

The one thing I miss from MTW was the variety in Bodyguard units... Sure all the Catholics got their silly Noble Knights... But Byz had Katas, Russia had Boyars (Who were really, really cool even though some people didn't like them... and the best part was they came in packs of 80 instead of 40 ;) ), Turks had basically Kataphract Archers (They called them something else, but effectively that was what they were)... I liked that... It's kind of lame that they're all the same in M2.

[troymclure]

That's right, that's why boyars where so uber in medieval. I also completely forgot about all the different bodyguards and the fact that you kept the unit after the general died. Fond memories of destroying rebels playing early russia and using only your king and his sons to do it. :)

I can see why they use the current system but the other one did make for some cool times as well.

[Kobal2fr]

The one thing I miss from MTW was the variety in Bodyguard units... Sure all the Catholics got their silly Noble Knights... But Byz had Katas, Russia had Boyars (Who were really, really cool even though some people didn't like them... and the best part was they came in packs of 80 instead of 40 ;) ), Turks had basically Kataphract Archers (They called them something else, but effectively that was what they were)... I liked that... It's kind of lame that they're all the same in M2.

Not only that, but any unit could house a general.

I remember, playing as the French in Early, the first Urban Militia you built always had Godefroy de Bouillon (4 star general, and historical French hero) as its leader. Any unit could get command stars as long as it acted as a general unit in a won battle.

With the RTW engine, either nothing happens, or you get "Man of the Hour" and boom, instant heavy cav, out of the blue. It's disconcerting.

I liked having super generals in totally useless units. I've had conquering lords born from peasant garrison units being sieged again and again and again. Made for a whole other point of view on warfare - truth is, most generals were not William Gibson Claymore-Swingin' Gladiator, they were just the brains behind the brunt. Alexander Nevsky wasn't a horse-walloper, he was Town Militia at best, AND a tactical genius nevertheless. Harald Hardrada was a good general who never fought on horseback and so on... but in RTW/M2TW, every named general is heavy cav. We lost something there, I think.