Turks: Best spear unit is ?

[Shahed]

Hi All !

It's approaching 1170 in my one and only campaign so far, and yeah I'm beginning to look forward to the Mongol and Timurid incursions. So much actually that I think I'll mod them to arrive soon.

From my experience in general, the heavy cavalry charge is invincible. If cavalry get off a straight charge, your infantry is dead no matter what it is. Anyway this thread is not about the charge, so please do NOT post here on that. I'm talking infantry.

What I need to know as Turks is what is the best infantry to employ to pin Mongol cavalry while I use my own cavalry to hit them. Or basically what infantry will hold a bridge etc. I played against Spain in Iberia and 4 units of Merc Spearmen, got WTFPWNEDBBQ'ed by 4 bodyguards crossing the bridge, with 2 infantry following. Then I just made a wide circle let them cross and smashed them with my own cavalry (horse archers).

I would however, like to be able to hold a bridge with infantry.
What did I do wrong ? 4 spear units is not enough ?

I think at the current state of the game, only cavalry can beat other cavalry (support from infantry does ofc help a great deal)

JHI of course can kill cavalry, but still takes a massive 50-60% casualty rate on charge impact. I don't want whole armies of JHI. I like some flavor to it, it would'nt be fun for me to play with a 20 JHI stack.

From the looks of the stats the Dismounted Sipahi Lancers (lol?) are the best spear unit available to the Turks.

What are your thoughts on this ? Any advice/suggestions/remarks most welcome.

Salute !

[Flavius Gonzo]

No doubt, the Turkish campaign is a blast. I may not be the best to answer your question, the Mongols finally arrived in my campaign last night, (it's like turn 65 or something, I was expecting them after turn 50), but I do have some thoughs on spearman.

I'm at work now, so I don't have access to the stat differential between Sacaren Militia and Dismounted Siphai Lancers. However, I'm becomming convinced that even if they have substantially better stats, the DSLs just aren't worth it. You get 60 vs 75 men, and the main problem I have is that it's a pain to manage them. It depends on your play style, but personally, I convert about 1 out of every 2-3 castles I capture, usually I do this in areas where there is a castle nearby and the settlement is a port (and hence, good financial) settlement. Anyway, if there isn't a castle nearby it's still more effort/time money to train DSLs than the Sacarens. The DSLs don't get free upkeep anywhere, and they can be fewer in locations. Plus, training and retraining DSLs often comes at the cost of training other units you definitely need, like Ottoman Infantry and Naffutun (I love those little guys!) So I'm starting to think that in the long run it will be easier and less of a financial burden to do away with the DSLs altogether.

But, I'm looking forward to hearing other player's thoughts...

[Shahed]

Points taken.

First of all I'd like to clarify my game a it more. I only have 3 castles, Caesarea, Smyrna, Tiblisi. Along the North African coast I intend to have only castles, but anyway that's the whole other direction. Basically I will make Tiblisi my stronghold for the Mongols and Timurids. I'll produce and replenish troops from there. Basically the only castles I want are the fringes of empire. I'm already starting my army buildup and already have 20+ DSLs, out of 4 full stacks sitting near Tiblisi. Actually one of those stacks is training killing rebels in Russian territory (with military access).

SM = Saracen Militia
DSL = Dismounted Sipahi Lancers

Advantages of SM over DSL:

• Difference of 15 men in favor of SM over DSL
• Free upkeep in cities
• Schiltrom formation
• Lower Upkeep in the field
• Easier to replenish
• Less drain on military production

Can someone do the math on the manpower ? Puzz ?.

What about the schiltrom, it does'nt seem to help much, does it ? They still get slaughtered.

Money is not an object as I have more than enough positive cash right now. that will change with Black Death, naturally.

The supply castle is near so that's not an issue, but it probably will be an issue to focus on DSL rather than let's say Kapukulu or Turcomen.

It boils down to the schiltrom, the manpower difference (i.e what mathematical advantage/disadvantage does it give) IMO.

I've tested both in custom and both are completely shattered by Khan's Guards. The 15 men don't seem to help, neither does schiltrom.

I'm just starting to build infantry now, solely for the Mongols.
Would love to see the Naffas, must be cool. Janissary acrchers are cool as well, Ottoman Infantry is decent, bows and swords, perfect.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that DSLs can be upgraded to splint mail while SM can only be upgraded to Heavy Mail. This gives DSLs 1 more point of armor, for what it's worth.

[Basileus]

To be honest i never used DSL my self, i always went for Saracens in my inf armies and against the Mongols. Late in the game my high tech armies didnt even have any spear units, i used JHI/JA/JM and the heavy cav with some artillery and it was a blast.

[Flavius Gonzo]

Jannisary Archers! Where do they come in? What do I need to build to get them?

Somewhere on the ORG I read that putting spearmen in guard mode and at least 5 ranks deep would substantially help against a heavy cav charge, I've been doing it against the Hungarians and it has helped against mailed nights for sure, as Sacs can definitely hold out for much longer in then they were before.

Also, one cautionary tale on the "Mongol" build-up. I started planning/building for this around turn 45. It was way to early, as I said the mongols just showed up around turn 67ish. As a result, I had several full stacks sitting around getting paid for nothing at the river crossings near Bagdhad, and my economy went from a point where I had buckets of cash and never even had a to think twice about the cost of a unit or building to where some turns I couldn't even keep all cities building the whole time.

The problem is, you only get I think 1-2 turns advanced notice that the mongols are en route. So you can't wait until then. But in hindsight I would have waited longer for the build-up, maybe at least until turn 50. It would have risked being partially prepared when they arrived, but it would have saved a lot of Florins.

[Basileus]

Flavius Gonzo, you can train Jannisary Archer in a city with Army Barracks.

[Shahed]

To be honest i never used DSL my self, i always went for Saracens in my inf armies and against the Mongols. Late in the game my high tech armies didnt even have any spear units, i used JHI/JA/JM and the heavy cav with some artillery and it was a blast.

What was the result of using the spearmer initially ?

Actually I will avoid all elite stacks. I limit elite troops to maximum 6 or 8 per stack. I consider this to be elite, althought the elite status is now gone from M2:TW, unlike MTW:

-All Sipahi
-Kapukulu
-All Janissaries

I'm trying to make it a bit hard on myself and also it's all about flavor.

Jannisary Archers! Where do they come in? What do I need to build to get them?

....I've been doing it against the Hungarians and it has helped against mailed nights for sure, as Sacs can definitely hold out for much longer in then they were before.

You need (IIRC) Army Barracks to produce Janissary Archers (JA). Royal Barracks fruther increases their production.

I think (not sure) Jannisary Musketeers (JM) also come from the same buildings (not sure!).

I've also done tests of JM vs Timurid Artillery Elephants and Timurid Elephants and JM can win 1 vs 1 against both if they have terrain advantage. Of course if they are shielded or the elephants are distracted it's easier.

2 JM vs 1 Elephant unit, it takes 90 seonds for the elephants to be destroyed or routed. But the JM always have to be shielded, if they are trampled it can be a mess. You can see the test here (post no.58):

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...2&postcount=58

How did you use the spears against Hungarians ? What formation etc ? charging in ? walking ?

[katank]

Did you try 2 deep loose formation for your spears? Have a unit like that to act like the sponge that absorbs the charge and then charge in the rest to finish off the cav. 6 units of shiltroned spears is sufficient to hold a bridge head usually.

Note that I've managed to mangle 4 units of flemish pikers guarding a bridge with 3 units of general BGs before. Heavy cav is simply uber. If you don't care about roleplay, I'd recommend countercharging or simply guard the bridge with arrows (works real well).

[Varyar]

Well, the Janissary Archers can use stakes. Luring the enemy to charge/pursue an infantry unit retreating through the stakes is as sneaky as it is bloody.

Otherwise I'd probably use Saracen Militia backed up by those lovely Naffatuns and perhaps a unit of JHI or Halberd Militia. I don't think any turkish infantry unit, unless very experienced, can hold off heavy cavalry on its own without assistance.