Is the game meant to be unexplained?

[Kobal2fr]

Ol' Fart stuff

Heh, I remember the first Civilization, with a manual the size of a book. I remember cause I didn't have a computer back then, and had pinched the manual from my-friend-who-had-one-and-the-game and read myself to sleep with it, dreaming of the day I would play it too *nostalgic sigh*. But agreed, flight simulations were the absolute worst. Ever played the original Falcon 4.0 ? You could stone an infidel to death with the manual. I still have it in a cardboard box somewhere, in case zee Germans try their Ardennes trick again.

It's all about the gaming industry becoming... well, an industry. Cutting down on costs everywhere. Standardizing. Becoming cost-efficient. Streamlined. Having gotten the attention of "the suits".

I remember the time when every gamebox was a different size, and they were the devil to organize and tidy up neatly in your gaming cupboard because you're anal and they just won't FIT . These days, it's just a DVD-box. They fit neatly. Dead neatly.

I remember having a pile of gaming manuals about as towering (and top-heavy. And collapsing all the time) as my pile of school books. These days, I count myself lucky when I don't throw a new game's manual out because it just happened to fall in the take-away menu and you-have-won-a-free-world-tour vouchers pile.
It used to be they printed huge paper manuals. Then they switched to paper quick-notes and huge .pdf manuals. Then they didn't even bother with the .pdf anymore... And now there's a whole parasite industry of suits making money out of selling the manual and calling it a "guide".

I blame money. And the invention of the tie, that instrument of the devil which taints the soul and turneth man into a ravening beast.

[Whacker]

Lame french things about surrendering and the following

I remember the time when every gamebox was a different size, and they were the devil to organize and tidy up neatly in your gaming cupboard because you're anal and they just won't FIT . These days, it's just a DVD-box. They fit neatly. Dead neatly.

I remember having a pile of gaming manuals about as towering (and top-heavy. And collapsing all the time) as my pile of school books. These days, I count myself lucky when I don't throw a new game's manual out because it just happened to fall in the take-away menu and you-have-won-a-free-world-tour vouchers pile.

HAHAH! MAN I remember the Civ manual! The main ones I were thinking about were the Wings over Europe/Pacific games, and then the best flight sims ever made, the Janes.EA ones like USNF, ATF, Longbow, etc... Also reminds me of Earthsiege, etc..... *sigh* You're making me feel ancient all over again...

Fortunately, I saved quite a bit of the boxes from the games I bought, AND I have a full plastic tote bin of all my old game manuals, key bindings, goodies, you name it. Both mom and Mrs. Whacker tried to make me toss them on more than one occasion, that always ended in tears and bloodshed.

[gardibolt]

There are positives to keeping things mysterious. I used to run games of D&D with a couple of different groups of people back in the 80s. Most of them were hardcore gaming types who were very into the mechanics of how things worked. But one of the groups was very, very casual gamers and even nongamers and as an experiment I ran the game that they were playing completely blind. They knew that the fighters were strong and hardy and so forth, but they had no notion of hit points or what their "numbers" were or anything. No +1 swords---just, this sword glows when you pick it up, maybe it's magical. As a result, they got totally immersed in the story line without having any idea in the least of how things worked on the numbers side--they rolled dice and I told them what happened; they had a general idea that 20 was good, but beyond that the game was a total mystery. They had a lot more fun than all the other groups, and 20 years later they still talk about adventures that they had.

I have no idea whether that's the sort of thing CA has in mind, but thought I'd throw that out there.

[Kraxis]

Well, that wouldn't conflict with a little line saying that agents cost so and so in upkeep, or that knights need to be perfectly formed to get a perfect charge, otherwise their charge might not be as good. No need for numbers with the charge... just tell us when 'it glows'.

This place and the blogs at the .com are the places for the deep mechanics, such as the numbers involved in the charges, or how AP work, or how a melee is structured (swingtime, chances of a hit, lethality ect ect). However the manual should explain just enough, just like you did in that D&D. That would leave people informed without making the 'magic' vanish. But currently the manual doesn't do that with this game, nor most others.

[Shahed]

There was a time I remember, when most of the discussions here were nothing but deep mechanics.

Like I said earlier, mystery = good. Ambiguity = bad.

[The Teacher]

id like a map and tech tree ! like rtw its meant to be a lil step forward not tow back.but i enjoy there to be lots to figure out its part of the fun, and who needs the manual when you have a cool forum like this one.

[Grimmy]

Personaly, I'd prefer the tech tree and map(s) to be available as printouts from the game disc.

I'd also prefer there to be "layers" of options available in those printouts as to how much detail and info you (the player) want to have available.

Maybe I want a tech tree in my hand that gives me what troops come from what buildings for my faction alone. Maybe I want that same info for all the factions. Maybe I want the tech tree that gives stats and notes on usage for unit types... maybe one that also has a little bit of historical info on what the buildings represent, or which of the cities/castles represented in my faction were most likely to have had such buildings, etc etc.

On maps, maybe I want the one global printout. Maybe I'd like the printouts of each geographically discreet area with greater degree of detail and some strategic info on where choke points might be found and tradtional avenues of approach for enemy forces.
Or maybe I want the print out of a specific region with full tac inf and terrain layout with what sort of terrain will be most likly triggered by a battle in specific areas so I have some better clue where to pick my fights.

This wouldnt be that hard to do or take that much in resources to develop. It couldnt be done in old school foldout type production mats but it could be made avaialbe for the player to print out as desired from the dvd or even sold as a seperate "support" dvd if it would cause the need to add an additional disc to the production.

For sure and for certain, I'd much rather have the above type info in the game I buy, rather than a "making of" disc which I'll never load, never watch and have no desire to possess.

[Kraxis]

Once I got a terribly good novel from a game... Beat that!

But if you think this manual is good, try to go back and check out the STW manual for comparison.

I quite simply blame the DVD box. There isn't room for maps, techtrees and large manuals in them. And I really needed both the techtree and map for this game. I bumbled about as an old fool initially, not knowing where settlements were, where good resources were or how to get certain units (the ingame building browser left me with the impression I couldn't train DFKs).

Such things as princesses, ancilliaries and charges should have been explained in the manual. Also upkeep for agents (how many expected princesses to cost as much as knights in upkeep, if at all?). I think that would have helped all of us a lot, and saved some people some complaints.

[Quickening]

Once I got a terribly good novel from a game... Beat that!

I got a great book with a game once. Fingerprints of the Gods by Graham Hancock came with Seven Kingdoms (great game). I was delighted.

I wish we could have those old manuals back. Because a lot of them were entertaining as well as informative. The Seven Kingdoms game I mentioned above had a great manual with little short stories in it. Totally pointless but they made you want to play the game something hellish

[Fisherking]

Just don't start me on the manual!!!

Remember the other games where you actually got a tech tree??? Without doubling the price. Also Maps or just a little ancillary information. Now some of that comes with the deluxe version that I didn't know was out until I had this ordered.

Now I don't think this game is near as buggy as most that I have bought and need a patch even to play the darned thing...

It works fairly well....some bugs, some balance issues, and a few things people don't care much for

Patches are also usually a two edged sword...they change what you like and keep all the junk you couldn't stand about half the time.

So manuals are expensive to write... The documentation needs to be better!!! I don't want to go into the game to have to figure out what is what or have to actually build a building to find that it actually does nothing.

And yes agents do cost upkeep...even priest