Commentary on the Greek voicemod....

[hellenes]

After playing 0.8 as Makedonia and listening the voicemod product Im left with a bizzare feeling of deep query:
1st Are the spanish and portuguese Greek? Cause my Greek ancestors supposedly spoke a mix of spanish and portuguese....

2nd I have 2 questions:
a. Either the Greek academic community is right and everyone outside of Greece is wrong, in which case why the Greek government doesnt do anything about it?

b. Or everything that we have been taught since high school right through the higher academic study is false in which case WHY is it false? WHY none comes here to correct our wrong ways? Can you imagine if the Greek educational system taught that the earth is flat? Wouldnt anyone react to it?

3rd And lastly I propose ANY non Greek scholar of ancient Greek to come to Greece and view the other side of the approach...it wont be as far from Ancient Greek as its believed....

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

After playing 0.8 as Makedonia and listening the voicemod product Im left with a bizzare feeling of deep query:
1st Are the spanish and portuguese Greek? Cause my Greek ancestors supposedly spoke a mix of spanish and portuguese....

Lusotanna use the Celtic Voice Mod.

2nd I have 2 questions:
a. Either the Greek academic community is right and everyone outside of Greece is wrong, in which case why the Greek government doesnt do anything about it?

b. Or everything that we have been taught since high school right through the higher academic study is false in which case WHY is it false? WHY none comes here to correct our wrong ways? Can you imagine if the Greek educational system taught that the earth is flat? Wouldnt anyone react to it?

3rd And lastly I propose ANY non Greek scholar of ancient Greek to come to Greece and view the other side of the approach...it wont be as far from Ancient Greek as its believed....

I'll let keravnos reply...

[abou]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=70471

In this thread, TA addresses many of the issues you brought up.

Also, isn't Keravnos Greek himself? He is the one who did the recordings, didn't he?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Also, isn't Keravnos Greek himself? He is the one who did the recordings, didn't he?

He is "Epirote".

[hellenes]

He is "Epirote".

1st Ive commented on the "Greek" voicemod...I havent played any celtic faction yet...and to me the supposed "ancient greek" sounded VERY much like Spanish and Portuguese...

2nd Epirotes are Greek.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I don't see any need to really discuss it really. Not that we won't - but we have done it already. We have one opinion, and a very specific group of people have another one that differs in a few places from ours (not that many really) but who are incredibly and feverently opposed to the differences.

As a mod, we are thrilled as we have exactly what we hoped for: someone who is greek and speaks modern greek and thus gets us an accent as close as we can hope, someone who has a very good voice for the project, and someone who is willing to use the pronunciations virtually the entire academic world believes the ancient greeks used. If there are disagreements about that or if some folks don't like it, please keep this in mind: given what we read and can take from what we think are the best and most unbiased sources, we did the best we could. Plus, we actually *did* it. If someone wants another version, they can make their own.

[khelvan]

a. Either the Greek academic community is right and everyone outside of Greece is wrong, in which case why the Greek government doesnt do anything about it?

b. Or everything that we have been taught since high school right through the higher academic study is false in which case WHY is it false? WHY none comes here to correct our wrong ways? Can you imagine if the Greek educational system taught that the earth is flat? Wouldnt anyone react to it?

Politics.

The Greek buildup of the Erasmus straw-man was politically motivated. Governments and people do not have any desire to change things they WANT to believe to be true. In many cases things get subverted due to politics.

This happens in every country. Governments allow the teaching of things that are untrue. In the US this happens, though less frequently than in the past.

Now I only mean the above as an explanation. I do not want this to devolve into a political discussion. Any political discussion will get moved to the Backroom.

[hellenes]

I don't see any need to really discuss it really. Not that we won't - but we have done it already. We have one opinion, and a very specific group of people have another one that differs in a few places from ours (not that many really) but who are incredibly and feverently opposed to the differences.

As a mod, we are thrilled as we have exactly what we hoped for: someone who is greek and speaks modern greek and thus gets us an accent as close as we can hope, someone who has a very good voice for the project, and someone who is willing to use the pronunciations virtually the entire academic world believes the ancient greeks used. If there are disagreements about that or if some folks don't like it, please keep this in mind: given what we read and can take from what we think are the best and most unbiased sources, we did the best we could. Plus, we actually *did* it. If someone wants another version, they can make their own.

But thats my query:
Why the greek academic community has a 180 degrees stance to all the others?
Why Greek kids are being taught one way and NONE from abroad reacts?
If we are wrong why none from the global academic community has not even stated anything to his Greek colleages?
Im baffled with the whole thing since its like we live in a ghetto with no communication with the outside world....

[khelvan]

If we are wrong why none from the global academic community has not even stated anything to his Greek colleages?
Im baffled with the whole thing since its like we live in a ghetto with no communication with the outside world....

Quite frankly, it isn't a big deal if people want to believe that an ancient language nearly mirrors their own modern language. This isn't the sort of thing that a human rights group brings to the world stage and protests.

I mean honestly, aside from stuffy academics in their ivory towers (just kidding, Dave :), who really cares if the language is being taught correctly in just one country? Besides, even if they did, I doubt it would be widely talked about within Greece itself.

I would imagine the thought process is "we don't care what they teach, they're free to believe whatever they want." Protesting things isn't the way of academics.

[keravnos]

Well, seems like the welcoming comitee is here. Hellenes, you are wrong. It's ok, but you still are. Since I expected this all along, I will now show you the thread where I discuss this thing.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=66990

I cannot convince you if you can't accept what Learned people from Outside of Greece, and many Greek scholars have proven time after time to be true.

Shigawhire WILL release a guide for voicemod making shortly. You can use it as a guide to make a modern greek voicemod and let your hoplites shout..." ΠΑΝΩ ΤΟΥΣ ΠΑΛΗΚΑΡΙΑ" and " AEPA!!!" to your hearts' content.

As for involving the Greek government, well, it is your choice really. You can call an ΕΙΣΑΓΓΕΛΕΑ (DA) to tell him that I am a traitor and a ΓΡΑΙΚΥΛΟΣ and basically whatever you want. I consider myself a Greek to the bone.

I will respond that it is a documented fact that the Ancients spoke the way they wrote. We still write, mostly the same way, but the way we pronounce it has changed. It has become easier to speak Greek. 2278 years have passed since the time this intellectual creation known as a PC game took place. To actually believe that Greek language hasn't changed in that period of time is well, wrong.

I will also tell him that I feel that it has been a mistake to ONLY concentrate the teaching of Ancient greek in so far as syntax and grammar is concerned. That we need to be taught the ancient PRONOUNCIATION, of it too, because in this way, we will have a whole picture of the way they were. Otherwise, well meaning, or not so well meaning people will go about making accusations.

And to close my argument, I will inform him that because of this game, people will deffinitely know more about Greece. They can't avoid it. Even if playing for the glory of Rome, they will still have to conquer 2/3 of the map that ARE Greek. That this mod is talking about the GREATEST era of our nation, Hellenistic one. That anyone/everyone playing EB will come out of it, KNOWING about Ancient Greece. Maybe, just maybe even wanting to find out more. And that is the whole point of the mater, isn't it. Knowing. Desire for knowledge about Greece. In the words of the immortal Isokrates" ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ ΚΑΛΟΥΜΕΝ ΤΟΥΣ ΤΗΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΗΝ ΠΑΙΔΕΙΑΝ ΜΕΤΕΧΟΝΤΕΣ", or "we call Greeks those who partake in the Greek education", or "We call Hellenes(Greeks) those who immerse themselves in Greek culture". Hearing Ancient Greek as they were spoken (most scientists think so, GREEKS INCLUDED), can be pretty immersive, if you ask me.

Hellenes, we are a small country which has a HUGE shadow. This shadow is history. We can either ignore it an play it safe in our small little room (crying that the whole world outside is wrong and unfair), or let the light shine in our small land and in our soul. Accept the legacy of our Ancestors and try to become ALEXANDERS not just another civil servant.

As an EPIROTIS, both my grandfathers fought in the 1940's war, including one of my grandmothers, she was one of those (ΓΥΝΑΙΚΕΣ ΤΗΣ ΠΙΝΔΟΥ) which carried guns and ammo to the troopers and then joined the resistance to fight the Germans and all that which probably doesn't interest you. Fathers' side, Grandfather's brother was an Lt and died at Smyrna in 1922. Mother's side, her father came from Kerasous, Pontos. I am Greek and proud of it. My family has shed blood for all of us to be where we are, and how we are today. Doubt whatever you will, but NOT THAT.

For anything else, please refer to my sig.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

True, it really very very rarely matters. This is one of the only places you'll probably find this sort of possibility for the two sides to come much into contact. An interesting point khelvan. When you are just concerned with reading it, it doesn't much matter. Especially if the only times you read it aloud are with other people who learned just like you did (whether we're talking about one group or the other).

[hellenes]

Politics.

The Greek buildup of the Erasmus straw-man was politically motivated. Governments and people do not have any desire to change things they WANT to believe to be true. In many cases things get subverted due to politics.

This happens in every country. Governments allow the teaching of things that are untrue. In the US this happens, though less frequently than in the past.

Now I only mean the above as an explanation. I do not want this to devolve into a political discussion. Any political discussion will get moved to the Backroom.

You describe the Hellenic Democracy as a totalitarian regime that has imposed a ulimatum of established approach on the Ancient Greek pronounciation not allowing any different voice to be heard...
Just to inform you the Junta of colonels has fallen since 1974 and we have freedom of speech in wich ANYONE can express his opinion....
I cant believe that teh entire academic community in Greece is under hostage and there is NONE from the lowest high school teacher to a Athens Univercity professor to correct our possible wrong doing...

[khelvan]

You describe the Hellenic Democracy as a totalitarian regime that has imposed a ulimatum of established approach on the Ancient Greek pronounciation not allowing any different voice to be heard...

No I didn't, I said governments allow the teaching of things that are untrue.

Here in the US, school districts are being allowed to teach creationism as "science." Again, I don't want people to start a political debate about that, it is just an example.

Countries that allow free speech are no less at risk of having untrue things taught in their schools than countries that are totalitarian.

Please direct me to where I said that the government of Greece was totalitarian.

[Moros]

I can't come up with a country where false things aren't been teached. I can recall a lot of stuff from history or science class that weren't true. Sometimes because what is being teached is outdated, sometimes they keep teaching false stuff because it is more interesting or romantic or just to widely spread,... For example gravity. We learned it was a force and all that blabla, cf Newton. While we should learn that gravity isn't a force, cf Einstein. Or when we learned about Galileo Galilei, they made it seem as it was the number one enemy of the pope (quite the contrary). Or during my latin class, Romans are presented to be the only "civilized" men except for the Greeks who were somewhat civilized. The rest would have been real barbarians, like Conan (not the silly one with the red hair). And you know that Celts, Persians,... were no Neanderthals.
It's not just Greece - and Greece isn't a totalitarian regime (as far as I know) - it's anywhere, In every country. From Japan to Iran and from Honduras to the US. And yes Greece is one of them, just like Belgium.

[keravnos]

You describe the Hellenic Democracy as a totalitarian regime that has imposed a ulimatum of established approach on the Ancient Greek pronounciation not allowing any different voice to be heard...
Just to inform you the Junta of colonels has fallen since 1974 and we have freedom of speech in wich ANYONE can express his opinion....
I cant believe that teh entire academic community in Greece is under hostage and there is NONE from the lowest high school teacher to a Athens Univercity professor to correct our possible wrong doing...

And here I am expressing my freedom, heck I even got a sig pronouncing that freedom, and you go asking for the Government to intervene. Freedom is for the others too you know.

As a Greek citizen, I voted and will still vote. I can also speak for the Greek Academic community. THEY ACCEPT ERASMIAN ACCENT. Most of them do, a lot have mixed opinion about it. I can speak for one such Philologist who spent 35 years employed in the Uni of Ioannina, that is my mother. I learnt early on, how the scientific community perceived of the ERASMIAN accent and more importantly WHY.

Truth of the matter is that the professor you had in high school didn't bother teaching you Erasmian accent. He just concentrated on syntax and grammar.

[khelvan]

Keravnos, and here I would have believed based on what hellenes was saying that the entire Greek academic community was at a 180 degree difference from the world community at large. Thank you for enlightening me!

[oudysseos]

My Greek is poor (don't get anywhere without Liddell-Scott) so maybe I'm not entitled to an opinon, but my grounding in logic and forensics is top notch.
Hellenes, you have made a number of assertions. Would you care to document them?
1. Please to post links to sources showing the polls taken about the opinions of Greek academics as to how Hellenistic Greek should be pronounced. The issue of whether a minortiy of Greek academics ( if there indeed is one) are correct about an issue that a majority of other academics seem to be in agreement on can then proceed in a more discliplined fashion. Books citations will do, I have access to an excellent collegiate library and a very good classics prof.
2. And how do you respond to the fact that the man making this horrendous mistake about greek pronounciation is himself Greek? I have read many of your posts from other threads, and the crux of your argument is the assertion that only Greeks know how to pronounce hellenistic era greek. Leaving aside, for a moment, the fact that your assertion is unconvincing to most people on the forum, if we do believe your claim that only Greeks can pronounce greek, then you can see that the mod team took you very seriously indeed.

Oh and I would appreciate not reading anything more about 'drunk germans' and so on. That offends me.

Thanks so very much to the guy who actually did the work, it must have taken a long time.

[hellenes]

And here I am expressing my freedom, heck I even got a sig pronouncing that freedom, and you go asking for the Government to intervene. Freedom is for the others too you know.

As a Greek citizen, I voted and will still vote. I can also speak for the Greek Academic community. THEY ACCEPT ERASMIAN ACCENT. Most of them do, a lot have mixed opinion about it. I can speak for one such Philologist who spent 35 years employed in the Uni of Ioannina, that is my mother. I learnt early on, how the scientific community perceived of the ERASMIAN accent and more importantly WHY.

Truth of the matter is that the professor you had in high school didn't bother teaching you Erasmian accent. He just concentrated on syntax and grammar.

Allow me to disagree with you.
1. If you READ my posts carefully youll see that I never asked our government to intervene...I just asked if WE are right why the government doesnt do anything to enlighten the rest of the world...OR if we are wrong why theis wrong doing continues?

2. Ive been taught in high school NOT only syndax and grammar...We had to READ ancient texts out LOUD and how did we read them?
ANDRA MOI ENEPE, MOYSA,. POLYTROPON...
ANDRA MI ENEPE MOUSA,. POLYTROPON...
Now how it happened that youre one of the few pupils taught the "real" pronounciation and the rest of us didnt? Do they teach students (future teachers) at the Uni at Iwannina how to teach kids ancient Greek?
Why is the Erasmian accent practically non supported in Greece? Where are the professors that accept that accent? And can you explain what you mean by some having "mixed opinion"?

3. And last can you please give me a symbol in ancient greek that symbolised the sound V...

[Shigawire]

1st Ive commented on the "Greek" voicemod...I havent played any celtic faction yet...and to me the supposed "ancient greek" sounded VERY much like Spanish and Portuguese...

Portuguese and Spanish did not exist in this era. Keravnos is neither Portuguese nor Spanish. I did not think it sounded similar myself..
I can understand that it would sound "different" to yourself, being hellenic.

a. Either the Greek academic community is right and everyone outside of Greece is wrong, in which case why the Greek government doesnt do anything about it?

b. Or everything that we have been taught since high school right through the higher academic study is false in which case WHY is it false? WHY none comes here to correct our wrong ways? Can you imagine if the Greek educational system taught that the earth is flat? Wouldnt anyone react to it?

Ok first, you are building up a false mythos that there are 2 groups:
1)Those inside of Greece who overwhelmingly believe modern and ancient greek were identical or indiscernable from one another.
2)Those outside of Greece who hold the belief that there are noticable differences between the ancient and modern.

This is erroneous.

Hold your horses. Let's not forget that Keravnos is Greek, and that his mother is a Classical philologist with a background in Ancient Greek.. wow - where do these people come from? Well, I guess we just happened to turn over a stone..

There are two groups of people within a society:
1)Intellectuals
2)Population
These two groups may have very different opinions on the whole, in different countries.
Keravnos' mother is in the "intellectual" group, she knows the "pulse" of academia.

The view you hold may be a majority view of the population, promulgated in miseducation. But the so-called "Erasmian" view is held as a majority view in the academic community. Your own view is a minority in Greek academia - despite its position in popular society.

it wont be as far from Ancient Greek as its believed....

Now, I don't quite get where you got the idea that Ancient and Modern Greek are so different!

Look at modern Norwegian and Norse from viking era.. HUGE difference, and only 1000 years passed! Today the people in Iceland speak an ancestor of Norse language. While we in Norway speak a very different language. We do NOT understand eachother.. we don't even want to try. We can barely read eachother languages..

Yet here you are demanding that Ancient Greek should sound identical to Modern Greek. We're talking about even MORE than 1000 years?! That's not insane? Your language, Greek, has changed FAR less in 2300 years, than Norse has changed to Norwegian in 1000 years. Your language still retains the SAME basic grammar, partly because your language has been reconstituted after Greece was ruled by the Turks for so long. Modern Norwegian does not have ANYTHING similar to the old Norse grammar.. Norse grammar is based on noun-cases like latin and greek. Modern Norwegian has no such thing..

The written Ancient Greek is tremendously similar to written Modern Greek. Some words are different of course.

Pronunciation is very different in Ancient and Modern Greek. Did this surprise you? Or does it simply shake a world view you hold? There's no way to know, since you are not postulating an alternative view.

You should be satisfied (or proud) that your language has changed so very little.. yet you think it's too much of a change...

And if you're suffering miseducation at school, I'm sorry for your country and people. If that is the case, it could be a backfiring of national sentiments due to the fairly recent cessation from the Turkish territory.

Usually when nations are formed or RE-formed, national sentiments are high, and it becomes necessary to build up the national self-image. A national theme song is composed, national poetry is suddenly being rapidly accumulated, a flag is decided upon.. Inherent in this process, a language is reconstructed.

This was the case with Israel's formation in 1947. Hebrew was a long defunct language, and the language which was reconstructed for the Hebrews was actually a Phoenician dialect. Meaning, the language modern Hebrews speak in Israel today is not true Hebrew at all, but a phoenician dialect. Still it is called "Hebrew."

And it was certainly the case with Greece's cessation from Turkey in the period of 1821-1834, that language was reconstituted from its past.

In such a process, it follows naturally that this self-image might become embellished in certain ways. One example of embellishment is national myths. Every young or reborn nation, has these national myths. Some are based on embellished stories, some are based on embellished virtues, some on language etc.

That Ancient Greeks spoke identically to Modern Greeks is of course a fallacy. I'm not even sure you disagree with this, but I'd be surprised if you did disagree. Now, the question becomes one of DEGREES. To what DEGREE did ancient sound like modern? And what linguistic process affects languages over time? I would point to you sir, that Palatalization is a crucial process which affects pronunciation of consonants. It is HERE that you do not postulate an alternative, even though you should.

To understand the view held by a majority of Greek academia, read up on the process of palatalization. Read up on "ancient greek." Talk to teachers or professors at school about the role of this process in Greek (as well as all languages).

[keravnos]

Allow me to disagree with you.
1. If you READ my posts carefully youll see that I never asked our government to intervene...I just asked if WE are right why the government doesnt do anything to enlighten the rest of the world...OR if we are wrong why theis wrong doing continues?

Ok, if I am wrong, forgive me. I made the conclusion and it sounded logical. Well, to answer you, the wrong continues because those who know it is wrong, don't do anything about it, or, if they do, are publicly hushed out as betrayers, soldouts, traitors, etc.

2. Ive been taught in high school NOT only syndax and grammar...We had to READ ancient texts out LOUD and how did we read them?
ANDRA MOI ENEPE, MOYSA,. POLYTROPON...
ANDRA MI ENEPE MOUSA,. POLYTROPON...
Now how it happened that youre one of the few pupils taught the "real" pronounciation and the rest of us didnt? Do they teach students (future teachers) at the Uni at Iwannina how to teach kids ancient Greek?
Why is the Erasmian accent practically non supported in Greece? Where are the professors that accept that accent? And can you explain what you mean by some having "mixed opinion"?

I read andra mi enepe mousa polytropon as well, and was a bit dumbfounded by it, as I had read why it shouldn't read like that so I asked my teacher. She told me that Erasmian accent was just an unproven theory. WELL THAT TO ME SOUNDS MORE LIKE THAT THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION IS JUST A THEORY, but I couldn't get anything else out of her. I was taught the "real" pronounciation because the one who taught me happened to be my mother. A philologist hereself much like the ones who taught you" ANDRA MI ENEPE...etc". I suppose what the Uni prof. teach theese days is much PRO ERASMIAN than anything that happened when my mother was a student there.
-Erasmian is not supported in Greece because it falls in the "Just another theory" category, not the "established fact" category. In fact everyone who speaks out against "established fact" is treated almost like an outcast. I can't mention names right now. It has been YEARS since I last spoke with Uni Profs about that. And to be frank, I wouldn't give those names if I had them. This notion that anyone accepting ERASMIAN accent is a traitor is a bit disturbing and, well, if you need to point at someone point at me. The buck stops here.

3. And last can you please give me a symbol in ancient greek that symbolised the sound V...

Sorry can't help you there. There WASN'T one. where we modern Greeks have... B(V), X, Φ, Ψ, Ξ, the ancients had B (as in Bulldog), K+h, P+h, P+s, K+s. Justme on another post reminded me of a theory that ancient Makedonians, spoke their Greek a bit differently, using Φ as your V, and quoting Φερενίκη as being written like that in Attic Greek (whereas it is known that Verenike is what the Makedonians called her) but still that is ambiguous at the least. Makedonian greek had some different sounds, but our knowledge of them is very limited. We know too much about Attic Greek, and not nearly enough about all the other dialects of the time, Dorian Greek and its' subdialects Hepirotan Greek, Makedonian Greek, even Spartan Greek.

The ones not accepting Erasmian accent point to examples like the one above, claiming it has gaps. It does. It tries to make ancient greek words sound like the sounds they made 2278+ years ago. It isn't easy, and there were A LOT of dialects back then. But the notion of having Ancient Greek sound like a mix of Cypriot Greek and Pontian Greek, well is complementing one. Both have too many Hellenistic Koine sounds to accurately portray spoken ancient Greek (NOT HELLENISTIC KOINE). I should know, I trace my ancestry in Pontos and spoke a tiny bit of Pontic as a kid.

So the basic question is this... Do you like more a big huge neon sign with "OUZO, MOUZAKA, ROOMS TO LET, RENT A DUCK" or an ancient statue, with all its little timemarks and possibly cut nose and ears, even head, that would make you wander what was...? I, would choose the statue. Because like Kolokotronis said "Γι' αυτά πολεμήσαμεν". I don't have a monopoly on truth, far from it. However, until, some better theory comes along I have to stick with the logic theorem constructed by scientists for hundreds of years now, in which ancient greek, its use and soudn fall under a unified theory. That ancients spoke what they wrote, and wrote as they spoke. Until changed by Hellenistic Koine that is. You can check for more info on wikipedia, if you want.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

And now continue the complaints on the twc board too about EB not listening to anyone else, a bunch of embarrassing european academics, labelling all who question them as "nationalistic freaks or whatever". All complaints from a handful of greeks on these fora. This is just sad. I will say this - if modern greeks made a voice mod of it all with their view of the pronunciations, you wouldn't have all of us showing up on their threads over and over and over and over telling them they were wrong and arrogant and etc. And I'd certainly have downloaded it and put it in my game too if we didn't have this one. It would be a lot better than nothing. But I suppose this is worse to them.

This has been the single most complained about aspect of this whole mod guys. Think about that. Since 0.72. Anyone care to suggest something else is? I doubt it.

[Krusader]

Well. If you don't like our voicemod you have basically two options:

1) Make your own voicemod.

2) Quit playing EB if you don't like the voicemod.

[khelvan]

Mikael, we've shut this discussion down long enough - now that the voice mod is out there we have to at least let people discuss it.

There are many debates about, for instance, Holocaust denial, and whether or not that small group of people who deny that it existed, or it was as severe as it was, should be responded to and their ideas refuted, or they should just be ignored. That is an ongoing debate.

I am on the side of the fence that thinks that debates should happen but only if they are tightly controlled. Facts should be presented and debate should be civil. When and if one side devolves into simple political propoganda, which does happen, it should be shut down.

I feel the same way here. Have the debate, but if it goes down the same path as all the others on this subject, I'm shutting it down.

[keravnos]

Keravnos, and here I would have believed based on what hellenes was saying that the entire Greek academic community was at a 180 degree difference from the world community at large. Thank you for enlightening me!

What science stands for is cold facts and what can those stand for. Simple things like the inclusion of Pneumata..., BH BH sound, all that. Herodotos called the Pashtun of today ΠΑΚΤΥΕΣ. As there was no SH sound in Ancient Greek, and -ES was added to all words especially foreign ones, Y of ancient greek must sound like the U from Pashtun, like french tu. Basically retracing proper pronounciation of Ancient Greek is so damn easy, it needn't have been debated. All can be taught to see how it evolved. It is NO rocket science.

Khelvan, sorry I missed that before. Greek scientists are no less scientists than Americans or Germans. It is just that people tend to make their own opinion the prevalent one. Be it accepted scientifically or not. And speaking PRO ERASMIAN in Modern Greece (in public) can be ugly for any potential professional advance. Here, you can understand why.


@Hellenes,
For the record, I know it sounds different. You say it sounds like Portuguese or Spanish. To my ears it sounded almost Germanic, Nordic to be precise. Of course it is neither. It is how we perceive Ancient Greeks to have spoken. No tears, No shouts. Pure facts as we can understand them. Even to my ear it sounded weird at first, and I was the one doing the recording. Hell, I lost many batches to speaking with Fff. THthth, etc. Some are still there to be heard under extreme distress.. (hint, hint).

You get used to it in time, though. It is more of an acquired taste like wine, or Expressionist art. I can understand your disliking or even hating it. I didn't do this to get voted into office. I just wanted it done right to the limits of my ability. To my mind, it is ok. You must know the adverd..." Ουδείς προφήτης στον τόπο του"..." No one can be a prophet in his homeland"

[hellenes]

Ok, if I am wrong, forgive me. I made the conclusion and it sounded logical. Well, to answer you, the wrong continues because those who know it is wrong, don't do anything about it, or, if they do, are publicly hushed out as betrayers, soldouts, traitors, etc.



I read andra mi enepe mousa polytropon as well, and was a bit dumbfounded by it, as I had read why it shouldn't read like that so I asked my teacher. She told me that Erasmian accent was just an unproven theory. WELL THAT TO ME SOUNDS MORE LIKE THAT THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION IS JUST A THEORY, but I couldn't get anything else out of her. I was taught the "real" pronounciation because the one who taught me happened to be my mother. A philologist hereself much like the ones who taught you" ANDRA MI ENEPE...etc". I suppose what the Uni prof. teach theese days is much PRO ERASMIAN than anything that happened when my mother was a student there.
-Erasmian is not supported in Greece because it falls in the "Just another theory" category, not the "established fact" category. In fact everyone who speaks out against "established fact" is treated almost like an outcast. I can't mention names right now. It has been YEARS since I last spoke with Uni Profs about that. And to be frank, I wouldn't give those names if I had them. This notion that anyone accepting ERASMIAN accent is a traitor is a bit disturbing and, well, if you need to point at someone point at me. The buck stops here.



Sorry can't help you there. There WASN'T one. where we modern Greeks have... B(V), X, Φ, Ψ, Ξ, the ancients had B (as in Bulldog), K+h, P+h, P+s, K+s. Justme on another post reminded me of a theory that ancient Makedonians, spoke their Greek a bit differently, using Φ as your V, and quoting Φερενίκη as being written like that in Attic Greek (whereas it is known that Verenike is what the Makedonians called her) but still that is ambiguous at the least. Makedonian greek had some different sounds, but our knowledge of them is very limited. We know too much about Attic Greek, and not nearly enough about all the other dialects of the time, Dorian Greek and its' subdialects Hepirotan Greek, Makedonian Greek, even Spartan Greek.

The ones not accepting Erasmian accent point to examples like the one above, claiming it has gaps. It does. It tries to make ancient greek words sound like the sounds they made 2278+ years ago. It isn't easy, and there were

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A LOT of dialects back then. But the notion of having Ancient Greek sound like a mix of Cypriot Greek and Pontian Greek, well is complementing one. Both have too many Hellenistic Koine sounds to accurately portray spoken ancient Greek (NOT HELLENISTIC KOINE). I should know, I trace my ancestry in Pontos and spoke a tiny bit of Pontic as a kid.

So the basic question is this... Do you like more a big huge neon sign with "OUZO, MOUZAKA, ROOMS TO LET, RENT A DUCK" or an ancient statue, with all its little timemarks and possibly cut nose and ears, even head, that would make you wander what was...? I, would choose the statue. Because like Kolokotronis said "Γι' αυτά πολεμήσαμεν". I don't have a monopoly on truth, far from it. However, until, some better theory comes along I have to stick with the logic theorem constructed by scientists for hundreds of years now, in which ancient greek, its use and soudn fall under a unified theory. That ancients spoke what they wrote, and wrote as they spoke. Until changed by Hellenistic Koine that is. You can check for more info on wikipedia, if you want.

If 270BC to 14AD entailed the Hellenistic period then I have no doubt that using the Classical Attic (and having the HELLENISTIC Seleucid/Ptolemaic/Makedonian troops shout it who were far from intellectual athenian elite) is the same thing as having a movie about modern Greece where actors speak the language from 1821...
By having the Hellenistic Koine in the mod you cover all the Era up until the start of Christianity so a Pontian/Cypriot dialect approach would be more appropriate instead of clining to a dying dialect as the Attic was....

As for the whole concpiracy theory of "antiErasmian" domination, you said it yourself that there is NOTHING 100% known about the pronounciation so there is NOT a solid fact which is exaggeration at best, plus having these whole network setup by the entire second grade education in Greece just to keep the masses in darkness doesnt sound that convincing...

Lastly I would like to point out that using Latin to figure out the pronounciation while being one of the major sources (due to the absence of any other way) entails many traps as nations rarely keep other nations words intact, their accents change the pronounciation so it doesnt sound like the original people spoke it...Just look at the English speaking people pronouncing Greek name today...Why wouldnt the Romans change the Greek words and pronounce them as it fitted their latin tongue....

[Teleklos Archelaou]

272. That's what we are trying to depict. Not a single bit of koine that we can find evidence of had become common at that time. It's just like our cities - why not put a huge first century BC city in there instead of some 272 city? Because we're trying to depict it from 272 on. Not 100 bc on.

[johnmk]

Obviously this is an emotional issue for hellenes . . . I would counsel his learning some much-needed tact, nevertheless. De-escalating the emotional brink is imperative to clear thinking and to convincing others.

keravnos said:

When and if one side devolves into simple political propoganda, which does happen, it should be shut down.

Isn't it better to lock people, and not threads?

[khelvan]

As for the whole concpiracy theory of "antiErasmian" domination, you said it yourself that there is NOTHING 100% known about the pronounciation so there is NOT a solid fact which is exaggeration at best, plus having these whole network setup by the entire second grade education in Greece just to keep the masses in darkness doesnt sound that convincing...

There is no conspiracy theory, there are only those who examine the facts and those who choose not to accept what evidence we have and instead say that nothing is proven or 100% known.

All science and history is based on examination of evidence and drawing conclusions based on these. NOTHING is 100% proven in science or history. That argument is spurious. We should not throw out the evidence we do have because it doesn't fit to someone's, or some zealous group's, world view.

There is no network, there is only public opinion and the dangers of group think. Ask Teleklos what having some of the less popular, but more accurate, views of history means to someone in his academic field. Having such views in an environment of fierce nationality only makes it worse. You need no conspiracy to have problems dealing with public opinion. It is a problem of politics.

However, feel free to deny the evidence as useful because it isn't suited to your own view, or that of the popular one in your country. Not coincidentally, the argument you make above is a common one among both Young Earth Creationists and Holocaust deniers. Draw from that what you will.

Isn't it better to lock people, and not threads?

If this were possible...probably, yes.

[Sarcasm]

@Hellenes,
For the record, I know it sounds different. You say it sounds like Portuguese or Spanish. To my ears it sounded almost Germanic, Nordic to be precise. Of course it is neither. It is how we perceive Ancient Greeks to have spoken. No tears, No shouts.

Don't even bother with this one mate. He clearly has no idea what Spanish or Portuguese is.

And I agree with you.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

My two cents: I took a class on ancient greek (biblical greek to be exact) and on the first day, our teacher made sure to impress apon us that knowing that greek wouldn't mean we could understand people if we went to Greece.

(On a related note: I love clicking on a HK general and hearing them yell out there name that is like thirteen sylabuls long.)