Now Just Why Is The Mongel Horde Muslem?

[Fisherking]

I was just at the end of finishing off a campaign with Sicily when a jihad showed up outside Jerusalem. Now this was no ordinary jihad as I had killed maybe a dozen before. This belonged to the Mongols and what is more it had "Elephants"… now don't ask me where they came by them but they were impossible to kill. They wiped out two stacks "full stacks with generals" that attacked them. Thinking it better to auto resolve than actually fight these monsters I did that with four more stacks…and my city was empty…totally empty! There were still 76 men left in the jihad when it took my city. I counter attacked the next turn with the same cannon and gunpowder units I had used in the first 5 attempts to kill them and finally destroyed them…but all the same it cost me several thousand men to kill 600 and I lost the faction leader and three generals doing it.

So what gives? Why are the Mongols Moslems in the first place, where did they get the elephants and why are they like fighting a battalion of Abrams tanks using sticks?

There were only two elepant units and one was only about half...they did all the killing...It was almost funny...except it was ME they were killing!!! lol...oh well

[Nestor]

I don't really have an answer but I cannot help it, I have to copy this from the manual:

Page 5: "...Medieval II, Total War offers the complete warfare experience, with realistic battle mechanics and historical accuracy..."

I guess it doesn't fit very well with your questions. Just wait for a mod, it doesn't make sense so it will be changed in quite a lot of them.

[Lord Condormanius]

The Mongols converted to Islam sometime in the 1250s.

[Fisherking]

You know I was using pikes and fire armes along with cannon...it just didn't help. Me thinks they be a might over powered...

[Shahed]

I was just at the end of finishing off a campaign with Sicily when a jihad showed up outside Jerusalem. Now this was no ordinary jihad as I had killed maybe a dozen before. This belonged to the Mongols and what is more it had "Elephants"… now don't ask me where they came by them but they were impossible to kill. They wiped out two stacks "full stacks with generals" that attacked them. Thinking it better to auto resolve than actually fight these monsters I did that with four more stacks…and my city was empty…totally empty! There were still 76 men left in the jihad when it took my city. I counter attacked the next turn with the same cannon and gunpowder units I had used in the first 5 attempts to kill them and finally destroyed them…but all the same it cost me several thousand men to kill 600 and I lost the faction leader and three generals doing it.

So what gives? Why are the Mongols Moslems in the first place, where did they get the elephants and why are they like fighting a battalion of Abrams tanks using sticks?

There were only two elepant units and one was only about half...they did all the killing...It was almost funny...except it was ME they were killing!!! lol...oh well

It sounds like you are talking about the Timurids.
The Mongols have elephants in M2:TW ?

[Fisherking]

Indeed it was the Mongols!!! Now just where and how they got elephants is beyond me....they just showed up with a very ´small but powerful jihad. When I went to attack it I noticed that despite me having a very heavy duty army with lots of powerful unit types the blue/red bar was way in their favor. I backed off to examen the stack and saw two elephants a decent general and a few other so so units. I brought in another stack that was just behind the city and attacked...needless to say it was still a bloody route...

[Oaty]

They could possibly be a rare mercanary unit. Also the best way to take care of elephants is missiles especially artillary. If you are short on missile troops, its best to send 1 melee unit at a time in lose formation until they run amok.

[Slaists]

It was the part of the Mongols (not the mainland ones), which later came to be known the "Golden Horde" that converted to Islam. And the conversion happened already after they had conquered big part of Russia and Iran. So, Mongols arriving on the map as Muslim is not historically accurate.

The Mongols converted to Islam sometime in the 1250s.

"Despite Russian efforts at proselytizing in Sarai, the Mongols clung to their traditional animist beliefs until Uzbeg Khan (1312-41) adopted Islam as a state religion. Several Russian rulers - Mikhail of Chernigov and Mikhail of Tver among them - were reportedly assassinated in Sarai for their refusal to worship pagan idols, but the khans were generally tolerant and even freed the Russian Orthodox Church of taxes."

Correcting myself: It was also Il-Khanate that converted to Islam, but again - it happened after the relenvat part of the Mongols had settled in a conquered area. www.wikipedia.org - "After a battle agianst Turks in 1243, Mongols occupied Anatolia. Sultanate of Rum became a vassal of Ilkhanate Mongols. These occupation lead Turkmens to move towards west to escape from Mongolian tribes. These gave birth to Ottomans.

After the battle, Hulagu returned to the Persian heartland and established his dynasty. The succession thereafter continued through his family line. The term il-Khan means "subordinate khan" and refers to their initial deference to Mongke as grand khan and ultimate sovereign of the entire empire. Hulagu's descendents ruled Persia for the next eighty years, beginning as shamanists, then Buddhists and ultimately converting to Islam under Ghazan. " (www.wikipedia.org)

And even more precise:

"Mahmud Ghazan (November 5, 1271 – May 11, 1304) was the seventh ruler of the Ilkhanate in Iran from 1295 to 1304.

He was born in 1271 to Arghun and a Christian mother as a Christian. As a youth, together with his brother Oljeitu, they both converted to Buddhism. He annexed power from Baydu in 1295.

In 1292, under the advice of the Rashid al-Din[citation needed], he converted to Sunni Islam. After that, he mercilessly destroyed Buddhist temples and chased Buddhists out of his country or converted them to Islam. The Christians were affected too. Despite his conversion, he encouraged the original archaic Mongol culture to flourish. He tolerated the Shiites as well.

Ghazan died in 1304 and was succeeded by his brother Oljeitu, and later by his nephew Abu Sa'id and niece Sati Beg. His principal wife is Kökechin." (www.wikipedia.org)

[Lord Condormanius]

Wikipedia is a useless piece of garbage. Baraka Khan converted long before that (1250s).

[King Azzole]

Sad part is they even have a pagan religion element in the game and didnt take advantage of it (Lithuanians, mongols, etc). I also miss seeing the Jewish religion come up in some of the regions.

Would be cool if you could build uber Jewish merchants in the middle east and other specific areas, having a "downside" of having a portion of your population convert (or move in) to Judaism. The downside being of course religious unrest due to the state having a different religion.

[Shahed]

The state conversion yes, which was necessary because the Horde was essentially Turkic and no longer Mongol in majority. The Horde had become an assimilation of Turkic and Mongol identity. It had become a conferderation of Turkic tribes. Sultan Ozbeg used the religion to subdue unrest and unite the Turkic tribes as this was their religion. By proclaiming Islam the state religion he was able to count on a majority support, although there were still other religions, Islam had become the majority religion. This would allow him to consolidate his power over the tribes and to be able to draft them into the army more readily.

The actual spread of Islam into the Horde can be debated because had already spread into the Golden Horde's empire from Persia and the Caucaus prior to their forays into the Middle East. The Horde's various Turkics, slowly converted to Islam, long before the state religion was adopted (the people convert before the state, the state has followed).

The paragraph you quote is referring to the administration of the state. The Khanate was still administered by ethnic Mongols, and they would have been the last to convert. Sultan Ozbeg issued the decree for conversion to ensure that he could hold onto the empire, as religious discord was threatening to break it from within. Of course he may also have had other personal reasons for doing so.

[Slaists]

Well, according to some tests ran recently, on average, that "useless piece of garbage" (Wikipedia) is more precise than encyclopedia Britannica. (http://science.slashdot.org/science/...?tid=95&tid=14)

Wikipedia is a useless piece of garbage. Baraka Khan converted long before that (1250s).

Anyway, Berke Khan did convert to Islam in 1250-ies, but that still happened AFTER the initial invasion and mongol settlement in Central Asia and Russia. Berke Khan was a ruler of the Blue Horde and White Horde, which later became the Golden Horde. Whereas Il-Khanate was a separate political entity. Conversion of the Blue/White horde did not imply conversion of Il-Khanate. I see no contradiction with what I said earlier.

[Slaists]

Well, if we read the material from Mongol Chronicles (Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World, by Jack Weatherford), it seems that during Gengiz Khan's conquest his Turkic subjects were a mix of Muslim, Christian, Budhist and various Pagan faiths. From what you are saying, I still do not see why Mongols at the time of Ogodai's conquest would be considered Islamic.

The state conversion yes, which was necessary because the Horde was essentially Turkic and no longer Mongol in majority. The Horde had become an assimilation of Turkic and Mongol identity. It had become a conferderation of Turkic tribes. Sultan Ozbeg used the religion to subdue unrest and unite the Turkic tribes as this was their religion. By proclaiming Islam the state religion he was able to count on a majority support, although there were still other religions, Islam had become the majority religion. This would allow him to consolidate his power over the tribes and to be able to draft them into the army more readily.

The actual spread of Islam into the Horde can be debated because had already spread into the Golden Horde's empire from Persia and the Caucaus prior to their forays into the Middle East. The Horde's various Turkics, slowly converted to Islam, long before the state religion was adopted

(the people convert before the state, the state has followed).

On a side note. The above is not necessarily always true. Examples: the only King of Lithuania Mindaugas converted to Catholicism while majority of this subjects were still pagan (and remained pagan for good 150 or so years after their King's conversion). Similarily, Khazar's religion became Jewish due to ruling elite's decision, not due to majority of the state's subjects being Jewish and the State adopting majority's religion. One can argue, that similar was the "top-down" conversion to Christianity of Kievan Rus.

[Lord Condormanius]

Well, according to some tests ran recently, on average, that "useless piece of garbage" is more precise than encyclopedia Britannica.

Although I wouldn't call Britannica uselss...am I supposed to be surprised by this?

Anyway, Berke Khan did convert to Islam in 1250-ies, but that still happened AFTER the initial invasion and mongol settlement in Central Asia and Russia.

This is true, but not by very long after Russia.

Berke Khan was a ruler of the Blue Horde and White Horde, which later became the Golden Horde. Whereas Il-Khanate was a separate political entity. Conversion of the Blue/White horde did not imply conversion of Il-Khanate.

Do you mean the Ulus of Juchi?

[Tuidjy]

The original poster is correct on all counts. These particular Mongols would
not have been Muslims, they have no business riding elephants, and elephants
in Total War are ridiculously unrealistic.

Elephants should be smaller, less scary and much more vulnerable. My
instincts also tell me 'slower because of all the armour', but I may be wrong.

On a side note. The above is not necessarily always true. Examples: the only King of Lithuania Mindaugas converted to Catholicism while majority of this subjects were still pagan (and remained pagan for good 150 or so years after their King's conversion). Similarily, Khazar's religion became Jewish due to ruling elite's decision, not due to majority of the state's subjects being Jewish and the State adopting majority's religion. One can argue, that similar was the "top-down" conversion to Christianity of Kievan Rus.

Bulgaria is another example. In 864 Boris the First adopted Christianity as
a state religion, and slaughtered, in the time honored fashion for resolving
regilious differences, more than half of the rulling Bulgar families.

[Shahed]

Points taken.

In my example I was referring to the conversion of the Horde from a Khanate to a Sultanate, to an Islamic state. This happened as it did, by the state adopting the majority religion of it's subjects, not vice versa. It's true that it does not always happen, and did'nt always happen.

There is no reason why the Horde should be majority Muslim in 1210, or by the reasoning and religion split of the game be considered Muslim. That was not what I wanted to convey. And actually I did'nt say that even once. Nope. I wanted to shed some light on the conversion...errr... conversation between you and Condor. I wanted to point out what I saw as a misinterpertation of that particular para which was first quoted, as that was clearly referring to the administration of the state.

I have'nt seen the Mongols in game yet, but IIRC they have Kipchaks as part of the Horde. This minor representation is sufficient, as it represents at one tribe.

I would also like to see Judaism as a religion in M2:TW. Although it would be much more spread around than what people would imagine.

Lastly, everything you see, particularly on the net, anyone can write it, with or without credentials. But don't worry I get your point.

[Slaists]

Do you mean the Ulus of Juchi?

I meant, Berke (son of Juchi) converted in Blue Khanate. The rulers of Il-Khanate (which included Persia) converted separately and later.

[Lord Condormanius]

The above is not necessarily always true. Examples: the only King of Lithuania Mindaugas converted to Catholicism while majority of this subjects were still pagan (and remained pagan for good 150 or so years after their King's conversion). Similarily, Khazar's religion became Jewish due to ruling elite's decision, not due to majority of the state's subjects being Jewish and the State adopting majority's religion. One can argue, that similar was the "top-down" conversion to Christianity of Kievan Rus.

I think this is largely true. Generally speaking, state religious conversions tend to be for political reasons and happen in a "top down" manner. This is the case with Christianity, which was a metropolitan religion in its beginnings. In fact the word "pagan" comes from th latin paganus, which basically refers to someone living outside the city. Those people tended to follow the old beliefs, which were good enough for them, their concerns being things like a good harvest, children, etc. It wasn't until Christianity came about that "pagan" came to mean someone who followed the old religious beliefs (of wherever they happened to be from).

[Lord Condormanius]

Judaism would be a great addition to this game and I am surprised that it had not bee included. Especially in later years of the game, There was a big Jewish influenct in the Levant, Spain*, Macedonia, Greece.

*flushed out by the Inquisition in 1492.

[Shahed]

... and some (a lot even) of it transferred to the Ottomans.

[Lord Condormanius]

...you might even say a whole lot of it.

[Lusted]

The Mongols are Muslim in the game as factions cannot change their religion in the campaign. So CA either made the Mongols always Pagan, or make them Muslim taking into account the Golden Horde did become Muslim later on.

[Shahed]

Probably better this way. In MTW they stayed pagan throughout. You sure factions can't change religion ?

[Zenicetus]

The original poster is correct on all counts. These particular Mongols would
not have been Muslims,

Well, it's probably just a question of streamlined game design (as in, "do you want the game now, or six months from now?"). Having them arrive as Muslim avoids having to program an additional game mechanic that flips their religion at some point. It would have to reset religious unrest, change building types, suddenly enable creating Imams... all sorts of follow-on consequences. Much simpler (even if a bit a-historical) to just have them come into the game as Muslim, since they were Muslim through most of the period covered by the game.

It would have been nice to see them blocked from joining Jihads too early though. That doesn't seem like it would be hard to program.

they have no business riding elephants, and elephants
in Total War are ridiculously unrealistic.

Elephants should be smaller, less scary and much more vulnerable. My
instincts also tell me 'slower because of all the armour', but I may be wrong.

They do seem a bit extreme. Best way I've found to deal with them is javelins, preferably a mounted jav unit if you have them. Aim to rout the 'phants, not kill them, and just expect to take a lot of losses. Combine with flaming arrows if you have archers. Artillery can work, but javelin units are cheaper, faster-firing, and don't miss as often.

[Lusted]

Probably better this way. In MTW they stayed pagan throughout. You sure factions can't change religion ?

Yup, i've had a look through the text files CA Oz released and its a set value in the descr_sm_factions.txt file.

[Kraxis]

Probably better this way. In MTW they stayed pagan throughout. You sure factions can't change religion ?

I don't know about it being better. It isn't a dead fact that they would convert in real life, and seems to only have done so when the circumstances forced them to do it.

So if they just got a sort of Priest and a religious building, they should have been perfectly fine as Pagans.

[Shahed]

True. Easy to implement too.

Hey but factions cannot change religion ? So what happens if 100% Catholic faction becomes 90% Muslim ? That must be in there .... one faction wide trigger and smack... everyone starts talking Arabic ! INFEEDEEELS !!!

ROFLMFAO !!!!!

(joke)

If anyone has not yet played Turks, you should ! The dialogues are freakin HI-larious.

[Shahed]

Yup, i've had a look through the text files CA Oz released and its a set value in the descr_sm_factions.txt file.

Ahh yes thanks I was up late last night. That's what I must have seen.

[Slaists]

Probably better this way. In MTW they stayed pagan throughout. You sure factions can't change religion ?

I suspect, the MTW 2 engine does not allow factions to switch religion in the middle of the game. Would be a nice addition to the gameplay though. CIV IV has it: a ruler can choose from any religion present in the empire's cities.

[Lord Condormanius]

RTW:BI had it too. I wonder why they would leave it out?