Questionable feature [replacements from retraining are experienced]

[Varyar]

When retraining units, they retain all gained experience regardless of numbers. Case in point, I had a unit of Dismounted Crusader Knights with only 5 men left in it, which gained a tremendous amount of experience thanks to cutting down routing troops. Didn't take long for them to reach exp. 9, three gold chevrons. So I retrained them, effectively adding to the unit 115 men without battlefield experience. Still, all 120 men now fight with exp. 9.

IIRC this was not the case in RTW, so either it's a mistake or a conscious redesign. Regardless, it ought to be changed back. It's not as if human players need yet another feature to outsmart the AI(there's plenty enough of that thankyouverymuch).

Apologies if it has been discussed before, did not find any mention in the bug list or in any thread on the first few pages.

[Daveybaby]

It's intentional.

It was the same in RTW, but in STW and MTW retraining filled in the gaps with green troops.

It does make far too easy to get highly trained units, but in its favour it has removed a lot of the tedious stack micromanagement we had to do in order to achieve that. Also, in STW and MTW the AI never really cottoned on to doing this, giving the player too much of an advantage.

[Whoz'onE]

I agree that this is rather odd, especially as if you combine two units the experience is averaged out (after a fashion).

Perhaps a 9xp unit which is retrained from 50% to full complement ought to average out at 5xp or 6xp, to reflect some value of training and fighting with experienced colleagues.

[econ21]

I think it is a big issue in RTW, as AFAIK, you get +1 attack/ +1 defence per level of experience. So with 9 levels of experience, you can have an uber unit with +9 attack/defence. In PBMs I play, we tend to impose a "no retraining" house rule to avoid this unrealistic effect being exploited.

In M2TW, the benefit of experience has been toned down a lot - the maximum 9 levels only give you +3 attack/defence. Given the wide range in unit stats (and the fact they don't seem to determine combat effectiveness as closely as in RTW), that does not seem such a big deal. Personally, I would not seek to impose it as a house rule in a M2TW PBM - especially given the new limits on how many units can be retrained per turn.

I think you could rationalise such a modest advantage to replacements from the beneficial spillover effects of joining a cadre of veterans who could teach newbies the ropes. For example, I know some have criticised the formation of large elite military corps because they remove such potential cadres of excellent soldiers from line units and so disproportionately lower their overall effectiveness.

[Varyar]

In M2TW, the benefit of experience has been toned down a lot - the maximum 9 levels only give you +3 attack/defence. Given the wide range in unit stats (and the fact they don't seem to determine combat effectiveness as closely as in RTW), that does not seem such a big deal.

While true, it still strikes me as a very illogical feature. Still, not that big a deal. BTW, do you know if those extra chevrons are just deadweight or if they provide other boni such as better morale?

[Blackboots]

I consider this an exploit, so I try to avoid it. After a battle, I merge what troops I can into the best units, leaving less experienced units to be retrained. Plus, this keeps my experienced troops in the front line while the n00bs run back and forth to the castle.

I'm no Latin expert, but I don't think 'boni' is a word. Anyone?

[Barry Fitzgerald]

Pros and cons on this one IMO. On the pro side...experience doesnt bolster the stats so much..meaning more balance. On the downside, you can go into battle with newbie units and not be at a significant disadvantage..also gone are the mega hard units that could turn the battle in themselves.

Not mad my mind up on this one....

I did like the experience of having a couple of hard as nails Carthaginian Sacred band units....that could just fight down to the last man...and give em hell!

Less incined about babysitting veteran units now..in MTW2..

Jury is out on this...guess it is down to taste.

[Kraxis]

I'm with Blackboots, however it is impossible to really get away from it, as often you will merge and have a few men left in a unit to be retrained. Unfortunately the merging take the least experienced men first, so if you have a few men left they are likely to be considerably more experienced. And as such, you are 'forced' to retrain a very experienced unit. And the end result is that this unit is then the strongest you might have, which seems odd, when the others have been fighting much more and more effectively. The retrained unit can easily be seveal silver chevrons, while the units that did better might not be more than two bronze.

So getting units to level up through combat is thus made redundant, as it is much better, and easier, to just retrain.

Not only does it away with careful usage of units, it removes the feel of elite units. There is no special feeling of a unit that has been carefully kept and 'trained' in combat so that now it is what you can consider the best your army has to offer. Right now such a unit is likely to be several levels lower than many others that have just been retrained. Seems counterproductive to me.
To me it is like going to the troops "Hey you seven othere there... you are the most decorated in your unit? Good. Now will you come with me. No, don't worry about the others, they are going to fill the ranks of other units while we get back to the castle so I can clone you for my superarmy."

And while this might help the AI to even the score a bit, it was never a problem when you had what amounted to elites, that were just two levels up from green. They were definately better, but not so much that it became a serious handicap for the AI.

I despise this feature severely, mostly because I can't really avoid it (I really don't like to disband units and such). Had it just transferred the most experienced troops during merges, then it would be much much much better.

[Handel]

The manual states retraining reduce the units experience. This sounds logical but this is not true and I consider it a bug too. Because the retrained unit retains its experience and this creates a serious disbalance. I recently looked more carefully at my emergence service stack of hospitaliers and... all the units are golden! Without using the merging exploit (use the unit with the highest experience to merge in the others, but don't use it entirely - retrain it and use it for merging etc...) - so as I said without using the merge exploit, but just by winning battles and retraining. Now they are unstoppable and easily win against every stack in non-siege battles.

[Reapz]

So its a bug that your battle-hardened troops do better in combat than when they were combat naive?

The merging exploit isn't. What happens is that if you take say 5/61 experience 4 units and merge them with 56/61 level 0 units they do not all end up level 4. They average and usually you will get something like 61 level 1 or 2.

So actually when you have very high experience unit remnants you should NOT merge them with lower experience units. You should retrain the unit remnant and create a full strength unit.

I think if your armies are more powerful after combat that is good. Whether the particular units you use are over-powered - that is a different issue.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

What Handel is saying is that retraining a unit should reduce its experience - the replacements should be less experienced and there should be a sacrifice in restoring a unit to full strength. There wasn't in Rome and apparently there isn't in Medieval 2.

It's technically not a bug but a feature - a really gimmicky feature that makes the game easier.

[FactionHeir]

Not quite, Alexander.
In RTW, retraining actually lowered unit experience considerably, but in M2TW it does not.

[Barry Fitzgerald]

I will second that. I played RTW to death..and you most def did lose experience with green troops into a veteran unit.

At this stage it is hard to say if this is a MTW2 feature..or an oversight...

[Whoz'onE]

The merging exploit isn't. What happens is that if you take say 5/61 experience 4 units and merge them with 56/61 level 0 units they do not all end up level 4. They average and usually you will get something like 61 level 1 or 2.

I think the point is that if you take 20/61 4xp troops and merge them with 50/61 0xp troops you get 61/61 1xp or 2xp troops and 9/61 4xp or even 5xp troops which can then be retrained to full strength. Et voila! You have produced two full units with 2xp and 5xp respectively from a set of green troops and some 4xp ones.

[Musashi]

I like the new system... It was too frustrating (Darn near impossible) to get a unit to full experience in MTW, even a few casualties in a battle meant an experience drop when you retrained them...

[Handel]

Well, it is better just to cheat. Especially when this creates the fully legal HUGE exploit with merging.
But... well... after that someone my look in the mirror and say "Oh my! How great am I"

[FactionHeir]

Almost all Russian units I get to see in my campaigns are 3 silver and fully trained. Wonder who they have been hitting.

[Carl]

Mongal.

[FactionHeir]

Erm, before mongols invade :p
The earliest I've met Russians was as the Turks when I invaded Russia after taking out Egypt and Byzantine at around turn 35.

[Carl]

Fair enough, I actually missed the question mark off and I can't edit my posts yet.

Not a clue if it isn't them then, except maybe their suffering a spate of rebel attacks.