Questionable feature [replacements from retraining are experienced]

[Reapz]

So its a bug that your battle-hardened troops do better in combat than when they were combat naive?

The merging exploit isn't. What happens is that if you take say 5/61 experience 4 units and merge them with 56/61 level 0 units they do not all end up level 4. They average and usually you will get something like 61 level 1 or 2.

So actually when you have very high experience unit remnants you should NOT merge them with lower experience units. You should retrain the unit remnant and create a full strength unit.

I think if your armies are more powerful after combat that is good. Whether the particular units you use are over-powered - that is a different issue.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

What Handel is saying is that retraining a unit should reduce its experience - the replacements should be less experienced and there should be a sacrifice in restoring a unit to full strength. There wasn't in Rome and apparently there isn't in Medieval 2.

It's technically not a bug but a feature - a really gimmicky feature that makes the game easier.

[FactionHeir]

Not quite, Alexander.
In RTW, retraining actually lowered unit experience considerably, but in M2TW it does not.

[Barry Fitzgerald]

I will second that. I played RTW to death..and you most def did lose experience with green troops into a veteran unit.

At this stage it is hard to say if this is a MTW2 feature..or an oversight...

[Handel]

This is obviosly a bug. It is stated firmly in the manual the replacements are green.

[rory_20_uk]

I agree that with the old system of decent troops could only be got through combat did require micromanagement, but I didn't and don't think that it is such a bad thing - especially when the AI doesn't retrain (something that there has beenample time to rectify).

Getting elite units and keeping them did require thought. Do you throw them in each and every conflict as your losses will be lower, or save them as a strategic reserve in case of problems? If you can chuck them into every fight only to replenish whenever seems pretty stupid.

[Kraxis]

People this was a 'feature' in RTW as well.

Some people began noticing something wa not right, then finally somebody trained a Bireme or something up to 3 golds, then retrained the remaining few men. Bam! Instant 3 gold ship. I even beleive there were screenshots as it was all very new, and people had been bickering over the issue for weeks.

And I definately remember the elite retraining in my RTW... So I wonder what you were playing. MTW perhaps? That was indeed free from elite retraining.

Andsince the manual says that retraining should deplete experience, I would have to say something got lost somewhere. Personally I just think that CA never noticed this, and actually believed/believes that retraining indeed does deplete experience. Hence why change anything for M2?

I would love to ask a dev if this is a feature or something that shouldn't be. That could settle this once and for all.

[Shahed]

Yeah I'd like to know as well.

Though it is nice to have 3 gold chevron troops but it's really fake. I've got about 8, 3 gold chevron Turcomen in my current campaign. It's awesome to play with them, all of them are snipers, send them straight for the enemy general and they shoot him down in a hail of arrows, while on the move ! It's awesome to watch though, cinematic !

But it is feeble so I stopped retraining. I merge units and produce fresh ones to feed field armies.

[Whoz'onE]

The merging exploit isn't. What happens is that if you take say 5/61 experience 4 units and merge them with 56/61 level 0 units they do not all end up level 4. They average and usually you will get something like 61 level 1 or 2.

I think the point is that if you take 20/61 4xp troops and merge them with 50/61 0xp troops you get 61/61 1xp or 2xp troops and 9/61 4xp or even 5xp troops which can then be retrained to full strength. Et voila! You have produced two full units with 2xp and 5xp respectively from a set of green troops and some 4xp ones.

[Musashi]

I like the new system... It was too frustrating (Darn near impossible) to get a unit to full experience in MTW, even a few casualties in a battle meant an experience drop when you retrained them...

[Handel]

Well, it is better just to cheat. Especially when this creates the fully legal HUGE exploit with merging.
But... well... after that someone my look in the mirror and say "Oh my! How great am I"

[FactionHeir]

While it differs from the information in the manual AND from how it worked in RTW, i think it would be reasonable to ask whether CA intended full experience retrains in M2TW and made that decision after manuals went to print.
The supporting point would be that valor doesn't count for too much anymore and +3off/deff is the max you can get whereas it was more than that before (i think)

[Rothe]

I would prefer a bit different effect from experience and a return to MT1 style retraining xp mechanic.

Most of all, I hate that I cannot see the effect of experience on unit stats in any way other than the +1/3xp. There are clearly some hidden benefits related to cavalry xp and charging, and I think also missile unit xp affects the killing efficiency even if the missile stat remains unchanged.

I would prefer to see some small benefit for each xp chevron. Something like:

1xp : +1 morale
2xp : +1 primary stat - either attack (missiles get missile stat, melee gets attack) or defense (if a defensive unit, like spear)
3 xp : +1 secondary stat (reverse of attack and defence from 2xp)

And so on...

This way you would feel good about getting any xp and you'd always feel warm and fuzzy inside when you have a stack full of experienced troops. At least more so than now.

Now, why is it so difficult to show this in the stats? Is it because the effects are not merely unit stat numbers, but also somehow affect reloading time/unit cohesion when charging etc. ?

[FactionHeir]

I agree, there should be benefits to every single experience chevron, not just 1 for every 3. Otherwise the intermediate levels are of no use.

[Kraxis]

We actually don't know if there are morale bonusses... Could very well be.

But I loved how it felt to create an elite army, or just an elite corps of troops, to use in desperate battles, or on a pressed front. That was great! The men almost all had a personal story of heroism. And they were definately better than the enemy troops, but not so much that they trampled all over them. You were just certain that they took fewer losses and could hold out in troubled situations. And the fact that you yourself had created them, and just been awarded them for nothing, felt absolutely great.

Also it seems experience helps archers and teh likes a lot more than melee troops. Sinan's example of 3 gold Turkomans, seems to fit my experience of archers as well. They get more lethal as the experience grows, to the point that a machinegun would be the only thing better. In horse archers that is just downright cheap. And since it is so terribly easy to get these 3 gold units, especially cavalry (routers anyone, they seem to count as much as regular kills which they shouldn't), what is the point? Just kill oof most of teh cavalry unit, well you don't even need to, often they suffer heavy losses, then use them to run down routers, and a green unit can become 2 silver in a single battle. One more battle and it is 3 gold. Then back for retraining...

Yuk!

[Reapz]

Most of all, I hate that I cannot see the effect of experience on unit stats in any way other than the +1/3xp. There are clearly some hidden benefits related to cavalry xp and charging, and I think also missile unit xp affects the killing efficiency even if the missile stat remains unchanged.....

Now, why is it so difficult to show this in the stats? Is it because the effects are not merely unit stat numbers, but also somehow affect reloading time/unit cohesion when charging etc. ?

Rothe, for missile units, experience points translate into two things - melee bonus and defence skill bonus. One extra point for two experience points. The bonuses have a significant effect on the unit's killing capabilities.

In the case of cavalry charges more experience does not seem to have as much of a benefit as you might expect.