Templar Armour Upgrade

[FrauGloer]

I noticed something quite strange in custom battle yesterday: of all Orders, the Templars are the only ones whose armour can't be upgraded twice (to full plate mail). Can anyone tell me why? In the campaign, why would anyone choose the Knights Templar over the Hospitalers (apart from their "coolness-factor"), as Hospitalers offer a public health bonus and don't have the "charge without orders" flaw + they can take better armour? Do the Templars have any hidden advantage to make up for this?

[ScrapTower]

I think the templars have a larger attack rating then the hospitallers... I have noticed the armor thing too...

[IrishArmenian]

Are you sure about that? I remember that they have the same attack rating.
I always pick the hospitallers and if available I would never pick the Teutonic knights. I despise them so, for I seem to be my Campaign's Nevsky. I have to fight those buggers and they get to the point where they get just annoying.

[ScrapTower]

Yeah I was wrong they both have:

Attack 13
Defence 16
Charge 8

The only difference I see is that the templars may charge without orders.

[Throumbaris]

I think templars are easier to get than hospitallers or teutonics thats why they are a bit less capable.

[BigTex]

I think templars are easier to get than hospitallers or teutonics thats why they are a bit less capable.

No the hospitaller's are far easier to get then the templar's. The templar's are very difficult to get and take a bit. For the most part a hospitaller's house just takes a good crusade and waiting around a settlement that surounded by islamic provinces.

[KARTLOS]

yes hospitalers do seem to have more advantages.

from my experience the chance of getting templar or knights of st john seems to be equal.

[spmetla]

The only reason I could think of was that because the Templars were all burned at the stake and eliminated they wouldn't have had access to full plate (somewhat historically at least) while the Hospitallers survived all the way up to the 1800s.

Kinda doubt that's why it is the way it is in the game.

[Eldon]

No bigtex is right, hospitallers are much easier to get. Same conditions as Templars plus being surrounded by islamic states helps, as does DoW'ing islamic factions (no fighting battles necessary!!!). The 'messy' details are in export_descr_guilds.txt or see this thread https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=74072

Why Templar's are harder to get, yet underpowered in comparison to Hospitaller's is a mystery!

[Kraxis]

Well, the Templar Chapter Houses should give some sort of economic bonus (since Hospitallers give health), or at the veary least give an easy ancilliary 'Templar Knight' that gives a bonus to trade income and hitpoints. Now that would be a nice guy to have in the retinue. And he could be the Templars' special feature.

[Mr Frost]

Well, the Templar Chapter Houses should give some sort of economic bonus (since Hospitallers give health), or at the veary least give an easy ancilliary 'Templar Knight' that gives a bonus to trade income and hitpoints. Now that would be a nice guy to have in the retinue. And he could be the Templars' special feature.

Nice idea . The Teutonic bonus should then be a significant conversion bonus : their method of conversion was mass extermination of the entire non christian population then import lots of German christians to replace them .
Highly effective {though utterly abhorant to anyone with a conscience and ironically completely non-christian} which would justify such a bonus I think .
Add perhaps an ancilliary whom gives dread and hitpoints .

[Sir Moody]

im already planning trait lines and ancillaries for all the knightly orders and will add them when we get the unpacker

heres an example

Initiate of the Templar Order
+1 Command
+1 piety

Knight of the Templar Order
+2 Command
+2 piety
+5% Trade income bonus

Master of the Templar Order
+3 Command
+3 piety
+5% Trade income Bonus
+2 Authority (a faction leader with this will be widely respected)



each order has their own lines and ive planed it out and intend to integrate it with a reshuffle of the current trait and ancillary conditions

[Kobal2fr]

I'm not sure the Teutonics need flavor/bonuses. Only the HRE gets them AFAIK, and the HRE can not have any other order, so there's no contest there. Besides, they already have flavor enough in having "fight pagans" triggers as opposed to "fight muslims".

Same goes for Santiago - they're the only order available for Portugal and Spain, and that's their specificity.

But right now, the only rational reason I can imagine that could possibly make you want the Knights Templar and actively refuse Hospitaler offers would be that the Hospitaler HQ has already been built by another faction (like that will happen, what with the AI always building spy guilds ).

I really like Kraxis' trade boost idea. It would both make sense, since the Templars quickly turned bankers, and make them a rational option. More choice is always better

Or you could just switch the triggers around, I suppose. Make the Templars pop up easily, and the Hospitallers better but harder to trigger.

[Kraxis]

Actually I like the idea that the Teutonic Chapter Houses give a bit conversion. Maybe 1, 2 and 3% (or maybe 0, 1 and 2)? It shouldn't be too much, just enough to make it interesting and effective, while not overpowering.

Then suddenly it would become a priority to build knights and so on in bordercountries so you could get the Teutons to help out.

I suppose the Knights of Santiago could do something as well, but I really don't know what their special strength was. The Hospitallers got their name because they tended the sick, the Templars became bankers and the Teutons converted people by the sword.

[Kobal2fr]

The Knights of Santiago were allowed marriage, as opposed to the other stricly monastic orders. So their numbers grew fast, not only because they made little Santiago babies, but also because people were more inclined to join them rather than the other orders for obvious reasons.

I suppose it could translate into a city growth bonus, or maybe a bigger max unit pool size than the other orders.

[Kraxis]

City growth is somewhat of a mixed blessing, so I would go with larger pool. 3-4-5 seems sensible.

[Husar]

the Teutons converted people by the sword.

That would be by the mace in Medieval 2, which should also give them armour piercing and that is quite a nice bonus by itself, isn't it?

[Kraxis]

It is, but not in all cases, and they are more expensive. Not I was talking about the buildings.

After you have two chapter houses you don't really want/need any more. But with the conversion bonus they can become interesting to use.