Cantabrian Circle quirks

[Kobal2fr]

After playing only catholic factions for a long time, and getting a bit bored with inquisicothics, I've been trying my hands at non-catholic factions, namely the Russians and (started 10 minutes ago) the Turkish. And their HAs are frustrating me to no end.

Seems to me, unless they have 50 miles of flat, clean, clear land around them, they just won't start circle firing. I tried everything I could think of. Disable skirmish. Order a symmetric, square box formation before turning the circle on. Tight of Loose formation. Setting HA units as far apart from each other as reasonable. They just won't do their indians-sacking-cowboy-chariots thing.

Any thoughts, hints, paving stones in the face 'cuz I'm too stupid to understand how it's supposed to work and be used ?

[Quillan]

Do they have a target in range? Personally, I never use that formation. It tires them out, because they are running the entire time in addition to the fatigue from shooting. I've followed Doug's advice and form missile cavalry into more or less square blocks.

[IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer]

Once you activate the shooting circle ability, give all your horse archers a move order on top of where they are, then immediately give an attack order again.

This will make your horse archers move slightly from the move order, which will make them start running in the circle while they obey the attack command.

Works every time.

[hundurinn]

Must be broken. Shouldn't be so much trouble to get that darn thing to work.

[Kobal2fr]

Do they have a target in range? Personally, I never use that formation. It tires them out, because they are running the entire time in addition to the fatigue from shooting. I've followed Doug's advice and form missile cavalry into more or less square blocks.

Running all the time doesn't matter as much when your HAs have Very High Stamina... But that's not the point.

The point is, I'd like to try both approaches and figure out which is best when out of experience, tests & results. I know the circle was somewhat useless in RTW, but M2 is not the same game, so I'd like to re-try. And I can't, cause I can't get the circle to fricken work . It's that charge thing all over again : I'm sure there's a "proper way", only I can't find the methodology...

Once you activate the shooting circle ability, give all your horse archers a move order on top of where they are, then immediately give an attack order again.

Thanks ! I'll try that at once. No "fire at will" I assume ?

[Musashi]

Basically the circle is useful when your horse archers are in range of enemy missile troops because it makes them less vulnerable to ranged fire....

Of course what I really wish they could do is circle around the target unit, shooting them from all sides...

[dopp]

It makes them very much less vulnerable to ranged fire and allows them to bombard the enemy constantly. Very useful. Too bad it doesn't work properly (especially when you have too many missile cav units in the same space).

[katank]

Activate the button and then click on the enemy unit you want to target. It works perfectly.

Note that skirmish becomes automatically disabled then. This makes your cantabrian cav very vulnerable to being hit by a cav charge.

[Hashashiyyin]

yeah the circle seems to be a lot less useful then in rome.

I just keep them squared up and micromanage flanking the enemy. if they have archers i try to hit and run them with my HA to keep them from firing. other then that, not much to do, and I never use the circle.

[KARTLOS]

i also found it hard to hard to do the circles, so i just gave up trying

[katank]

It's useful only if you are getting hit hard by enemy missiles. Usually, with a large superiority in missiles of a pure HA army, it's better simply to sit in squares and flank with the units so your units sit in a circle around their army shooting.

Multiple horse archers in circles collide with each other any how.

[Saphery12]

I have not tried it too much with MTW2, but in RTW it worked extremely well against armies trying to cross bridges and if you didn't have enough men to block it off with spears.

Get about 8 regiments together, start them spinning and target the first regiment or two it look as though a machine gun just razes them all down. Moral drops like a rock, they break and you can repeat it on the others. It gets pretty interesting though if they have cavalry too. Looks like they are diving into a whirlpool and getting blasted from all sides.

[Shahed]

After playing only catholic factions for a long time, and getting a bit bored with inquisicothics, I've been trying my hands at non-catholic factions, namely the Russians and (started 10 minutes ago) the Turkish. And their HAs are frustrating me to no end.

Seems to me, unless they have 50 miles of flat, clean, clear land around them, they just won't start circle firing. I tried everything I could think of. Disable skirmish. Order a symmetric, square box formation before turning the circle on. Tight of Loose formation. Setting HA units as far apart from each other as reasonable. They just won't do their indians-sacking-cowboy-chariots thing.

Any thoughts, hints, paving stones in the face 'cuz I'm too stupid to understand how it's supposed to work and be used ?

It works perfectly like this. Most of the following is standard procedure for me:

1. Turn OFF skirmish and fire at will.
2. Approach the target.
3. Hit F and click the target.

This formation is useful in the following cases:

1. Your horses are constantly moving reducing the enemy's ability to hit you by missile fire (also reduces you own missile accuracy ofc).
2. A unit in cantabrian circle tends to attract a charge, hence giving you a lure and bag option for the charging unit.

In order to circle around the enemy:
1. Turn OFF fire at will.
2. Waypoint a path around the enemy as close as you can get to the enemy.
3. RUN.
4. Enable fire at will when very close (to maximise accuracy) OR when far (to maximise early under fire morale penalty and early enemy formation disruption)

If you want to make this even more complex and awesome to watch:
1. Turn OFF fire at will.
2. Waypoint a 2 waypoint path around the enemy as close as you can get to the enemy.
3. RUN.
4. At waypoint 1 (as close as possible), missile attack the enemy and click F.
5. Waypoint another 2 point path.
6. At waypoint 1, missile attack the enemy and click F.
7. Repeat as a above, indefintely.

The 2nd waypoint is just in case you get intercepted at waypoint 1 /edit: then you already have a waypoint ready in case you don't want to catabrain you can just carry on running. /edit The above is hard to do but it's incredibly beautiful to watch the archers shooting while constantly moving.

/edit Pay attention though because to pull this off you have to ALWAYS have skirmish off, and you have to be very alert. There's a lot of micromanagement involved. IMO skirmish does'nt really work well, I mean even with experience 9 it seems some missile cav just can't see a charge coming even when it's staring them in the face on the tip of 40 large colorful tournament lances. I find I get better results by clicking myself. Specially in extremely close quarters. Be careful to watch your casualties against missile units, you have to make sure you are killing more than they are. I should say that I use cantabrian occasionally, but mostly I run across from side to side i.e from one flank to the other circling around the enemy army. If the opportunity presents itself I charge in. /edit

Some screenshots (still looking for some of catabrian they are somewhere here on my HD but anyway will post when I find them):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[BeeSting]

That's some beautiful screenshots.

[Doug-Thompson]

Check the ones on the "Camel Gunners are the BOMB" thread. I'll look for the link.

[BeeSting]

yeah, I saw those... kind of inspired me to play the moors. A good thread, Doug.

[Shahed]

Thanks.

Hey while looking over the Moors thread I saw I already posted a shot of Cantacircle.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Those 3 on the horizon are in cantabrian circle. I'll get some more shots up eventually.

[baron_Leo]

I thing they only start the circle when under fire, or attacked. As long they are safe they are just standing...

[Musashi]

I still wish there was an automatic "Run in a circle around the enemy shooting arrows into them like Indians in an old western movie" formation.

[Shahed]

I'd love it if they could move around while maintaining Cantabrian Circle. True Hollywood GLORY !

I simulate that with waypointing and micromanagement. :)

[Kobal2fr]

Sinan : Wow. Just... just wow.

These shots and your methods make me wanna cry, honestly. I'll never be *that* quickthinking nor quickclicking, ever :}

It's a bit like painfully struggling to learn how to play (badly) a Nirvana tune, then listening to Ten Years After - Going Home. Makes you feel very, very Tiny Grasshopper-y.

[Shahed]

Thanks.

Actually the subconcious intention was more, to inspire than anything else. I'm not really that good, there have been and are much better all cavalry players, and always will be. I would'nt play all cavalry with say HRE, but with the Turks, it's awesome. I guess the same goes for Egyptians, Mongols, Timurids, maybe Russians etc.. Maybe Egyptians are more flavorfull with their finer Mamluks, as standard horse archers compared with Turcomen.

I've taken a few more shots, with great difficulty, since I find it hard to take screenshots in those moments when you have to be everywhere at the same time. But I think I got a few more ok ones, which should be more demonstrative, will post them when I can.

Did you try again ? Did it work now ?

[Orda Khan]

Nice screenshots,Sinan, but there again, I seem to remember you have always posted artistic shots. Your post offering CC advice goes to prove that this feature still works and works well.
The Cantabrian Circle is not something for those players who leave their HA to look after themselves as their skirmish ability is directly affected, they still circle and can therefore be easy pickings for light cav. I generally switch off FAW and skirmish and rely entirely on micro management. I particularly enjoy targeting a unit and waypointing on the run as this lets the HA pump some arrows into the unit as they pass it. Harrying tactics like this are a tremendous way of demoralising the enemy and disorganising their lines. I generally have some shock cav support in strategic places, any venture by enemy cav is dealt with by these and/or the HA themselves. Pure steppe tactics, wonderful!

I still wish there was an automatic "Run in a circle around the enemy shooting arrows into them like Indians in an old western movie" formation.

The Cantabrian Circle never worked this way, it was like a tornado either at flanks or even in front of enemy lines. The individual HA would begin at the centre, gradually moving outward and picking up the pace. At the outside of the formation he would charge towards the enemy, loosing arrows as he went. At a given range he would turn left or right (the Huns would often employ two circles simultaneously) gallop along enemy lines while still firing and return to the circle shooting back over his mount. Circling a static formation (circle of wagons) is fine but a cav charge or two at different points from this formation would cause problems for the HA

......Orda