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  1. #1
    Member Member Brythoniaid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Longbows are no good

    I have to agree, they are not very good at all.

    After reading this thread, Im really disappointed by the amount of "english, english, english" At the battle of Agincourt the longbow men were WELSH, And at the battle the WELSH fought under their own banner and not under the banner of "england", But of course the welsh dont get any credit because England has and always will be the main producer of british history, Seeing as they play only a role of pain and death they have to make it sound a hole lot better.

    Also the welsh were using Longbows as early as 633AD when the King of Northumbria was killed by a Welsh Longbow man, And indeed the vast majority of longbow men used by the English during the middle ages were WELSH because its one of their transitional weapons, But today stolen and claimed as being english.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Longbows are no good

    Quote Originally Posted by Brythoniaid
    I have to agree, they are not very good at all.

    After reading this thread, Im really disappointed by the amount of "english, english, english" At the battle of Agincourt the longbow men were WELSH, And at the battle the WELSH fought under their own banner and not under the banner of "england", But of course the welsh dont get any credit because England has and always will be the main producer of british history, Seeing as they play only a role of pain and death they have to make it sound a hole lot better.

    Also the welsh were using Longbows as early as 633AD when the King of Northumbria was killed by a Welsh Longbow man, And indeed the vast majority of longbow men used by the English during the middle ages were WELSH because its one of their transitional weapons, But today stolen and claimed as being english.

    Hear hear! One of my bugbears too! The English only developed any sort of longbow culture after Edward 1 conquered Wales. They used Welsh Archers and it was generations of Welsh "ex-pats" and welsh influence that led to the English counties developing it for themselves (although tbf they did in the end). So, for the history buffs, the English shouldn't be allowed any longbows until the late 1200s!

    Of course I'm a scot. It's easier to admit our armies were slaughtered by the Welsh than the English.....And Culloden was the lowland scots beating our own. Flodden Field was purely because James IV refused to let his artillery open fire out of chivalry!!! Falkirk was the Welsh archers and the treachery of scottish nobles (cavalry)...Prestonpans was..erm...eh..a bug! Yes that's it. The AI was broken!

  3. #3
    Hammer of the Scots. Member r johnson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Longbows are no good

    Quote Originally Posted by Moah
    Hear hear! One of my bugbears too! The English only developed any sort of longbow culture after Edward 1 conquered Wales.

    Of course I'm a scot. It's easier to admit our armies were slaughtered by the Welsh than the English.....And Culloden was the lowland scots beating our own. Flodden Field was purely because James IV refused to let his artillery open fire out of chivalry!!! Falkirk was the Welsh archers and the treachery of scottish nobles (cavalry)...Prestonpans was..erm...eh..a bug! Yes that's it. The AI was broken!
    The Northern Eastern Welsh I think you mean, Wales has never been united as a single state, it has always been small waring tribes that the English picked off one after the other. Cardiff is more English than London but we won't get into politics. It's very easy for me to talk about English victories against the Scots, King Athelstan V King Malcolm was by far my favourite. You should keep in mind the southern Scots are decended from English! Your not 100% Scottish like we're not 100% English
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Longbows are no good

    Quote Originally Posted by Brythoniaid
    I have to agree, they are not very good at all.

    After reading this thread, Im really disappointed by the amount of "english, english, english" At the battle of Agincourt the longbow men were WELSH, And at the battle the WELSH fought under their own banner and not under the banner of "england", But of course the welsh dont get any credit because England has and always will be the main producer of british history, Seeing as they play only a role of pain and death they have to make it sound a hole lot better.

    Also the welsh were using Longbows as early as 633AD when the King of Northumbria was killed by a Welsh Longbow man, And indeed the vast majority of longbow men used by the English during the middle ages were WELSH because its one of their transitional weapons, But today stolen and claimed as being english.
    Hehe true, didnt want to say anything because it would make an already complex game even more complex. But your absolutely right.

  5. #5
    Member Member MadKow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Longbows are no good

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_crapalot
    Hehe true, didnt want to say anything because it would make an already complex game even more complex. But your absolutely right.
    CA are well aware of that. The proof is that in the previous installment, the original MTW, Wales could raise +1 Longbowmen, thanks to the nice feature of regional units, lost in the RTW engine.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Longbows are no good

    Quote Originally Posted by MadKow
    CA are well aware of that. The proof is that in the previous installment, the original MTW, Wales could raise +1 Longbowmen, thanks to the nice feature of regional units, lost in the RTW engine.
    Ive almost forgotten about the regional bonuses, oh how i would love to see this feature to reappear.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Longbows are no good

    I see everyone has their own pet bow type that should be able to rock any other bow type :p

    But that dosnt change the fact that crossbows have a much shorter range then the yew longbow that the british used and its slower to fire.
    Where are you getting the shorter range from? I see no reason to believeve in a shorter range, either from the authors I have read, or just thinking of the physics behind it.

    The harder an object is thrown, the farther it will go. Barring some great aerodynamic difference between crossbow quarrels and the bodkin arrows english archers used, I see no reason to believe one would travel farther, when shot with the same force at the same angle.

    Now, the question becomes, which bow is capable of generating more force? Obviously the later crossbows win here, where they used mechanical advantage to pull the 'string' tighter than would be possible by sheer brute force alone (and english longbowmen were quite strong).

    Of course, there are all kinds of crossbows: belt hook, lever, winch, crappy string crossbows where the crossbowmen would simply pull the string back with his arms, etc. Some of these would have farther range (and thus more penetrating power) than longbows, some less.

    All would take far longer to shoot.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Longbows are no good

    Quote Originally Posted by MadKow
    CA are well aware of that. The proof is that in the previous installment, the original MTW, Wales could raise +1 Longbowmen, thanks to the nice feature of regional units, lost in the RTW engine.
    Has anyone ever used the Welsh longbowmen mercenary unit? Are they as bad as their stat would suggest?

    Regarding the 200lbs longbow remark, there's actually a guy in England right now that has been videotaped shooting a 200lbs longbow. It was for an ad for backtop material. Interesting draw method, he really has to draw with his entire body, no clasical T form there.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Longbows are no good

    Quote Originally Posted by SextusTheLewd
    Regarding the 200lbs longbow remark, there's actually a guy in England right now that has been videotaped shooting a 200lbs longbow. It was for an ad for backtop material. Interesting draw method, he really has to draw with his entire body, no clasical T form there.
    Yes I've seen it. A local archer I know has also used a longbow (that he and a friend made) of 182lbs. He used it in a flight competition and achieved a distance of 385 metres.
    There are many composite Turkish bows upwards of 160lbs being used and their flight ranges are ridiculously long.
    What we have to realise is these are very much the exception rather than the rule. Longbows of that time were nearer 80 - 120lbs and Asiatic composites of the horseback archers 50 - 80lbs.
    On a side note, the Welsh certainly inspired the English use of the longbow and large numbers of Welsh bowmen took part in English campaigns but there were also large numbers of English bowmen as well

    ......Orda

  10. #10

    Default Re: Longbows are no good

    Ive been wondering about the difference between english and welsh archers, how big was the difference? Was the difference minimized as time by? Or was the welsh archers the elite archers of their time? As far as i know they both used yew bows, but did the bow types differ?

  11. #11
    Large Member Member NightStar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Longbows are no good

    @Carl

    I think you mean 7.62 mm rounds, and what you forget in that regard is the powder charge is bigger, that is why the 7.62 mm round goes farther than 5.56 mm


    But onto other things. The Horn bow existed and was used in the Icelandic climate, and that is a fact.

    The Icelandic Parliment which started around 930 A.D had a law that no one was allowed to bring a bow within a 500 yards (or 480 meters to be exact) of the Parliment (which was held outdoors) because that was the range of the horn bow.

    Horn bow ( Horn bogi in icelandic) is what the vikings called the composite bow. As to where the vikings got the composite bow? Probably from Byzantium, as many vikings went there to trade or became Væringjar (varangians)

    So there we have a source that states that a composite bow had a range of aprox. 480 meters. Of course there is not a chance in hell that anyone could hit at that range
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  12. #12
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Longbows are no good

    Quote Originally Posted by Orda Khan
    What we have to realise is these are very much the exception rather than the rule. Longbows of that time were nearer 80 - 120lbs and Asiatic composites of the horseback archers 50 - 80lbs.
    ......Orda
    Are the horsearcher draw weights based on examples of bows or any sources?


    CBR

  13. #13

    Default Re: Longbows are no good

    Quote Originally Posted by CBR
    Are the horsearcher draw weights based on examples of bows or any sources?
    CBR
    Estimates based on the materials found, especially the earlier horse archers like Huns, Avars, Magyars, where evidence was more fragmentary. Some later examples have survived quite well.
    www.atarn.org has some very interesting features on archaeological finds.

    Ive been wondering about the difference between english and welsh archers, how big was the difference? Was the difference minimized as time by? Or was the welsh archers the elite archers of their time? As far as i know they both used yew bows, but did the bow types differ?
    Basically, the English saw the potential of the longbow as a very effective weapon during their campaign in Wales. Welsh bowmen featured alongside English bowmen and it would be wrong to suggest that either was better, that would depend entirely on the individual. By the time of the 100 year war, bowmen were all elite; maybe not by merit of birth but they plied their trade for a wage and many enjoyed 'freeman' status

    ........Orda

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