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Thread: Damn, my tin-foil hat won't save me afterall!

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    Member Member IRONxMortlock's Avatar
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    Default Damn, my tin-foil hat won't save me afterall!

    Quote Originally Posted by Article
    Wearing a tinfoil shirt is not enough -- you would have to be wrapped like a turkey to be completely protected.
    Say Hello to the Goodbye Weapon
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    By David Hambling| Also by this reporter
    02:00 AM Dec, 05, 2006

    The crowd is getting ugly. Soldiers roll up in a Hummer. Suddenly, the whole right half of your body is screaming in agony. You feel like you've been dipped in molten lava. You almost faint from shock and pain, but instead you stumble backwards -- and then start running. To your surprise, everyone else is running too. In a few seconds, the street is completely empty.

    You've just been hit with a new nonlethal weapon that has been certified for use in Iraq -- even though critics argue there may be unforeseen effects.

    According to documents obtained for Wired News under federal sunshine laws, the Air Force's Active Denial System, or ADS, has been certified safe after lengthy tests by military scientists in the lab and in war games.

    The ADS shoots a beam of millimeters waves, which are longer in wavelength than x-rays but shorter than microwaves -- 94 GHz (= 3 mm wavelength) compared to 2.45 GHz (= 12 cm wavelength) in a standard microwave oven.

    The longer waves are thought to limit the effects of the radiation. If used properly, ADS will produce no lasting adverse affects, the military argues.

    Documents acquired for Wired News using the Freedom of Information Act claim that most of the radiation (83 percent) is instantly absorbed by the top layer of the skin, heating it rapidly.

    The beam produces what experimenters call the "Goodbye effect," or "prompt and highly motivated escape behavior." In human tests, most subjects reached their pain threshold within 3 seconds, and none of the subjects could endure more than 5 seconds.

    "It will repel you," one test subject said. "If hit by the beam, you will move out of it -- reflexively and quickly. You for sure will not be eager to experience it again."

    But while subjects may feel like they have sustained serious burns, the documents claim effects are not long-lasting. At most, "some volunteers who tolerate the heat may experience prolonged redness or even small blisters," the Air Force experiments concluded.

    The reports describe an elaborate series of investigations involving human subjects.

    The volunteers were military personnel: active, reserve or retired, who volunteered for the tests. They were unpaid, but the subjects would "benefit from direct knowledge that an effective nonlethal weapon system could soon be in the inventory," said one report. The tests ranged from simple exposure in the laboratory to elaborate war games involving hundreds of participants.

    The military simulated crowd control situations, rescuing helicopter crews in a Black Hawk Down setting and urban assaults. More unusual tests involved alcohol, attack dogs and maze-like obstacle courses.

    In more than 10,000 exposures, there were six cases of blistering and one instance of second-degree burns in a laboratory accident, the documents claim.

    The ADS was developed in complete secrecy for 10 years at a cost of $40 million. Its existence was revealed in 2001 by news reports, but most details of ADS human testing remain classified. There has been no independent checking of the military's claims.

    The ADS technology is ready to deploy, and the Army requested ADS-armed Strykers for Iraq last year. But the military is well aware that any adverse publicity could finish the program, and it does not want to risk distressed victims wailing about evil new weapons on CNN.

    This may mean yet more rounds of testing for the ADS.

    New bombs can be rushed into service in a matter of weeks, but the process is more complex for nonlethal weapons. It may be years before the debates are resolved and the first directed-energy nonlethal weapon is used in action.

    The development of a truly safe and highly effective nonlethal crowd-control system could raise enormous ethical questions about the state's use of coercive force. If a method such as ADS leads to no lasting injury or harm, authorities may find easier justifications for employing them.

    Historically, one of the big problems with nonlethal weapons is that they can be misused. Rubber bullets are generally safe when fired at the torso, but head impacts can be dangerous, particularly at close range. Tasers can become dangerous if they are used on subjects who have previously been doused with flammable pepper spray. In the heat of the moment, soldiers or police can forget their safety training.

    Steve Wright of Praxis, the Center for the Study of Information and Technology in Peace, Conflict Resolution and Human Rights, notes that there are occasions when this has happened in the past. He cites British soldiers, who increased the weight of baton rounds in Northern Ireland.

    "Soldiers flouted the rules of engagement, doctoring the bullets by inserting batteries (to increase the weight) and firing at closer ranges than allowed," says Wright.

    There may also be technical issues. Wright cites a recent report on CS gas sprays which turned out to be more dangerous in the field than expected.

    "No one had bothered to check how the sprays actually performed in practice, and they yielded much more irritant than was calculated in the weapon specification. This underlines the need for independent checking of any manufacturers' specifications. Here secrecy is the enemy of safety."

    Eye damage is identified as the biggest concern, but the military claims this has been thoroughly studied. Lab testing found subjects reflexively blink or turn away within a quarter of a second of exposure, long before the sensitive cornea can be damaged. Tests on monkeys showed that corneal damage heals within 24 hours, the reports claim.

    "A speculum was needed to hold the eyes open to produce this type of injury because even under anesthesia, the monkeys blinked, protecting the cornea," the report says.

    The risk of cancer is also often mentioned in connection with the ADS system, despite the shallow penetration of radiation into the skin.

    But the Air Force is adamant that after years of study, exposure to MMW has not been demonstrated to promote cancer. During some tests, subjects were exposed to 20 times the permitted dose under the relevant Air Force radiation standard. The Air Force claims the exposure was justified by demonstrating the safety of the ADS system.

    The beam penetrates clothing, but not stone or metal. Blocking it is harder than you might think. Wearing a tinfoil shirt is not enough -- you would have to be wrapped like a turkey to be completely protected. The experimenters found that even a small exposed area was enough to produce the Goodbye effect, so any gaps would negate protection. Holding up a sheet of metal won't work either, unless it covers your whole body and you can keep the tips of your fingers out of sight.

    Wet clothing might sound like a good defense, but tests showed that contact with damp cloth actually intensified the effects of the beam.

    System 1, the operational prototype, is mounted on a Hummer and produces a beam with a 2-meter diameter. Effective range is at least 500 meters, which is further than rubber bullets, tear gas or water cannons. The ammunition supply is effectively unlimited.

    The military's tests went beyond safety, exploring how well the ADS works in practice. In one war game, an assault team staged a mock raid on a building. The ADS was used to remove civilians from the battlefield, separating what the military calls "tourists from terrorists."

    It was also used in a Black Hawk Down scenario, and maritime tests, which saw the ADS deployed against small boats.

    It might also be used on the battlefield. One war game deployed the ADS in support of an assault, suppressing incoming fire and obstructing a counterattack.

    "ADS has the same compelling nonlethal effect on all targets, regardless of size, age and gender," says Capt. Jay Delarosa, spokesman for the Joint Non-Lethal Weapons Directorate, which decides where and how the ADS might be deployed.

    "It can be used to deny an area to individuals or groups, to control access, to prevent an individual or individuals from carrying out an undesirable activity, and to delay or disrupt adversary activity."

    The precise results of the military's war games are classified, but Capt. Delarosa insists that the ADS has proven "both safe and effective in all these roles."

    The ADS comes in a variety of shapes and sizes. As well as System 1, a smaller version has been fitted to a Stryker armored vehicle -- along with other lethal and nonlethal weapons -- for urban security operations. Sandia National Labs is looking at a small tripod-mounted version for defending nuclear installations, and there is even a portable ADS. And there are bigger versions too.

    "Key technologies to enable this capability from an airborne platform -- such as a C-130 -- are being developed at several Air Force Research Laboratory technology directorates," says Diana Loree, program manager for the Airborne ADS.

    The airborne ADS would supplement the formidable firepower of Special Forces AC-130 gunships, which currently includes a 105-mm howitzer and 25-mm Gatling guns. The flying gunboats typically engage targets at a range of two miles or more, which implies an ADS far more powerful than System 1 has been developed. But details of the exact power levels, range and diameter of the beam are classified.

    http://www.wired.com/news/technology...ory_page_prev2

    I'm in two minds about this. I think this could really help to prevent innocent deaths and prevent unlawful riots etc. but as the article mentions, non-lethal weaponry tends to get abused more often as it's not consider harmful.
    and New Zealand.

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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Damn, my tin-foil hat won't save me afterall!

    I doubt that concerns about possible abuse ever stopped the military from using anything. You can only hope to prevent it if the weapon isn't developed yet, wich is probably why it was kept a secret.
    I think the portable version would be a pretty bad idea. With a bulky device positioned on a hummer you can at least garantue that the users will be well trained. There are always cases of soldiers doing wrong, but I'd rather trust this sort of stuff to them then to the police (except riot control)

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    Default Re: Damn, my tin-foil hat won't save me afterall!

    I can imagine these being issued for civilian use in a couple of years. Or variations on it.


    If it does happen they will need strict regulations on them. But if these become common in some other governments then they would definitely be abused. And if these become standard weapons then will we go back to guys running around in armour?
    Last edited by Hepcat; 12-08-2006 at 10:09.

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    Texan Member BigTex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Damn, my tin-foil hat won't save me afterall!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec
    I doubt that concerns about possible abuse ever stopped the military from using anything. You can only hope to prevent it if the weapon isn't developed yet, wich is probably why it was kept a secret.
    I think the portable version would be a pretty bad idea. With a bulky device positioned on a hummer you can at least garantue that the users will be well trained. There are always cases of soldiers doing wrong, but I'd rather trust this sort of stuff to them then to the police (except riot control)
    This hasn't been kept even close to secret. Hell the history channel included it in the nonlethal (less then lethal) weapons bit they did a little less then 5 years ago. It only has the capability of causing minor to 2nd degree burns if exposed for awhile and even then in rare casses. The things mounted on a stryker it's a little difficult to abuse. Quite a good decive which allows them not to use bullets. Really there are few things as effective as feeling your on fire to get you to move.

    There also close to launching the new directional sound devices, allows them to have laser like sound capable of reaching 180+ decibals. These two devices will do quite alot of good in peace keeping situations.
    Wine is a bit different, as I am sure even kids will like it.
    BigTex
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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Damn, my tin-foil hat won't save me afterall!

    Given that I own a cyberpunk RPG that came out a year or so back that has a weapon which is basically a portable version of this toy, I'd say the developement hasn't exactly been Top Secret.

    It's also been discussed before.

    Now, one thing I'm a little worried about is that if I understood correctly this device hurts like Hell without actually doing any meaningful physical damage. You get exactly three guesses at the potential human rights abuses...
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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Damn, my tin-foil hat won't save me afterall!

    Quote Originally Posted by BigTex
    This hasn't been kept even close to secret. Hell the history channel included it in the nonlethal (less then lethal) weapons bit they did a little less then 5 years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Article
    Its existence was revealed in 2001 by news reports, but most details of ADS human testing remain classified.

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    probably bored Member BDC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Damn, my tin-foil hat won't save me afterall!

    Beats mowing the crowd down with machine guns.

    I'd rather be hit with temporary agony and run away rather than having bits of myself shot off.

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    Texan Member BigTex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Damn, my tin-foil hat won't save me afterall!

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchmen
    Now, one thing I'm a little worried about is that if I understood correctly this device hurts like Hell without actually doing any meaningful physical damage. You get exactly three guesses at the potential human rights abuses...
    It can leave physical burns on a person, happens rarely to sensitive skinned people. But it will definately leave major burns on a person if they decide to torcher them with it. Indeed there can be human rights abuses, but that can happen with any item they have. It will save more lives, help keep order (saving more lives) in peacekeeping operations. There are more chances for human rights abuses with the rifles, pistols, grenades, flashbangs, shotguns, and gasoline then this can cause. Yet does anyone oppose them not having any of those because of possible human rights abuses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Article
    Its existence was revealed in 2001 by news reports, but most details of ADS human testing remain classified.
    Ah would explain it being in that one. Still though kind of hard to keep the human testing classified when the effects can be explained in less then a minute by a scientist. Still I've seen this kind of "weapon" in a dozen or more sci-fi movies/games, kinda hard to keep anything like that secret.
    Last edited by BigTex; 12-08-2006 at 11:14.
    Wine is a bit different, as I am sure even kids will like it.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Damn, my tin-foil hat won't save me afterall!

    Ah that microwave-beam thingie, don't really see anything wrong with it. I believe we have something in development that makes low ferquenty sound, causing sickness. Better then tear gas, which can be pretty bad for your eyes and lungs.

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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Damn, my tin-foil hat won't save me afterall!

    Quote Originally Posted by BigTex
    It can leave physical burns on a person, happens rarely to sensitive skinned people. But it will definately leave major burns on a person if they decide to torcher them with it. Indeed there can be human rights abuses, but that can happen with any item they have. It will save more lives, help keep order (saving more lives) in peacekeeping operations. There are more chances for human rights abuses with the rifles, pistols, grenades, flashbangs, shotguns, and gasoline then this can cause. Yet does anyone oppose them not having any of those because of possible human rights abuses?
    Precisely.

    "There are more nasties in the torturer's cupboard than are dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio". *Feeble apologies to Will*

    I would like to see more information, but I am pretty sure I would have preferred to have one of these for policing Orange order marches in the eighties than "rubber bullets". Those were seriously lethal, pretty much whatever one did. And therefore would generate far more subsequent anger in the communities.

    Let alone being damn near useless for riot control.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Though I'm still waiting for Trouser Rot to become available. Nothing disperses a crowd of angry rioters faster than their trousers hitting the deck and the crown jewels waving happily in the winter air.
    Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 12-08-2006 at 11:53.
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    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Damn, my tin-foil hat won't save me afterall!

    An effective, non-lethal, alternative to break-up rioters or ward off masses of attackers sounds pretty good to me, it does have the potential for abuse but what doesn’t?
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    Corrupted Member ezrider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Damn, my tin-foil hat won't save me afterall!

    Interesting weapon. I was wondering when this kind of technology would become operational - there so many sci-fi applications.

    I would like to see more information, but I am pretty sure I would have preferred to have one of these for policing Orange order marches in the eighties than "rubber bullets". Those were seriously lethal, pretty much whatever one did. And therefore would generate far more subsequent anger in the communities.
    They are lethal cos the troops and police often aimed for the head and chest(I think aiming below the waist is the sanctioned target area), plus I have read in a book by an ex-soldier that they would increase the amount of cordite in the round to "give it more zip".
    At a Demo/riot once, my dad helped a girl who had been hit by a plastic bullet in the head. The skin wasn't broken but a section of her skull was crushed. I can't remember if she died or not. Those fkers in the RUC never gave a toss about safety.
    This definitely relates to the incident of tasering that student in the States.
    This weapon may be effective, but, in the wrong hands..abuse..the inevitable reclassification to less than lethal...etc
    Last edited by ezrider; 12-08-2006 at 17:19.
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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Damn, my tin-foil hat won't save me afterall!

    Quote Originally Posted by ezrider
    They are lethal cos the troops and police often aimed for the head and chest(I think aiming below the waist is the sanctioned target area), plus I have read in a book by an ex-soldier that they would increase the amount of cordite in the round to "give it more zip".
    At a Demo/riot once, my dad helped a girl who had been hit by a plastic bullet in the head. The skin wasn't broken but a section of her skull was crushed. I can't remember if she died or not. Those ***** in the RUC never gave a toss about safety.
    Your last sentence is a gross over-generalisation. Whilst I rarely had much love for the RUC, many were professionals in a difficult situation.

    And as an officer in the British Army, I was often the one faced with giving the order to use riot control. My soldiers acted on my orders and we did not aim for the head and chest unless under extremely serious attack. The injuries occasioned by plastic bullet use came most often from the fact they ricocheted unpredictably. Accepted technique was to fire at the ground about two metres in front of the rioters so the baton round would bounce, lessening the impact velocity. Unfortunately this led to unpredictable flight and targets.

    I don't doubt some soldiers may have enhanced the rounds, but any soldier of mine who did so would have been on a serious charge. It was not commonplace.

    What was commonplace was rioting crowds of both sides providing cover for snipers to shoot at my men. In such cases, it was necessary to clear the crowd PDQ. It was also not unusual for the IRA particularly (because of the mythology of the baton round for the republicans) to fire rubber bullets at their own people to inflict injuries as propaganda.

    As I said, I'd have liked to have a weapon like the one described for riot control.
    Last edited by Mithrandir; 12-09-2006 at 12:42.
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    Swarthylicious Member Spino's Avatar
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    Default Re: Damn, my tin-foil hat won't save me afterall!

    FYI, they make those hats in aluminum now... tres chic.

    I really like the sonic crowd control device that's currently in use in Iraq. It directs a deafening 'beam' of sound from a much smaller device that can be easily swiveled and tilted in any direction (a stark contrast to that cumbersome and large microwave emitter). The downside to the sonic device is that it has a really tight focal area. However a few slow pans over an offending crowd should help keep them under control.
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    Texan Member BigTex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Damn, my tin-foil hat won't save me afterall!

    This weapon may be effective, but, in the wrong hands..abuse..the inevitable reclassification to less than lethal...etc
    No this should definately be called non-lethal. As lethality with this would require some very serious thinking. It would litterally take a few minutes for a person to be killed by this. During that cooking process they would also have to be constantly in the ray's path, becuase if they leave then thier skin will cool and the cooking process will have to be restarted. This means they would have to tied down, can't have people holding them. Not only that but they would be screaming and litterally smoking, and boiling before they die. These are mounted on strykkers, which travel in groups. It would take the commanding officer and dozens of soldiers doing nothing to stop this, in order for it to kill. If all of them are willing to condone such an action then I think anything in their hands is lethal, even a babies rattle.

    No this is definately non-lethal.
    Last edited by BigTex; 12-08-2006 at 22:29.
    Wine is a bit different, as I am sure even kids will like it.
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    "'elp! I'm bein' repressed!" Senior Member Aenlic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Damn, my tin-foil hat won't save me afterall!

    The military is still unable to grasp the concept of unintended consequences. or in this case unknown side effects.

    "Should" have no harmful and lasting effects, from the same people who used Agent Orange on their own soldiers? No thanks.
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    Member Member IRONxMortlock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Damn, my tin-foil hat won't save me afterall!

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    Now, one thing I'm a little worried about is that if I understood correctly this device hurts like Hell without actually doing any meaningful physical damage. You get exactly three guesses at the potential human rights abuses...
    Hmmm.......



    GOT IT!!!!:


    Install them in Gitmo and the other gulags! This can be another handy tool to extract information from terrorists and general evildoers.

    God I love freedom!

    The military is still unable to grasp the concept of unintended consequences. or in this case unknown side effects.

    "Should" have no harmful and lasting effects, from the same people who used Agent Orange on their own soldiers? No thanks.
    Or tested nukes on them, or gave them huge does of LSD, or let them use DU ammunition etc.
    and New Zealand.

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    probably bored Member BDC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Damn, my tin-foil hat won't save me afterall!

    Going to see cunning rioters carrying big mirrors.

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Damn, my tin-foil hat won't save me afterall!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aenlic
    "Should" have no harmful and lasting effects, from the same people who used Agent Orange on their own soldiers? No thanks.
    You are aware of the group of soldiers who drank glasses of that stuff and suffered no long term (as in decades) health risks compared to a control group? Or is this just more left wing ranting?

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    American since 2012 Senior Member AntiochusIII's Avatar
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    Default Re: Damn, my tin-foil hat won't save me afterall!

    Whatever they do, please don't let this thing be in the hands of American police.

    I'm a minority, you see.

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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Damn, my tin-foil hat won't save me afterall!

    Do they understand how easy it is to make a reflector for microwaves?

    3 pieces of tin foil placed perpendicular will reflect the wave back at the point of origin (much like light reflectors at the back of a car or on a pushbike)... approx 3mm sized set of pyramids made of metal and then extrapolated to a shield should reflect the pulse right back at the machine with ease. A curved metal surface could be used to focus it on a point just like a radar focuses on the receiver... but the focus point could be far longer... say the soldiers operating it... a more intense burst that would really hurt.
    Last edited by Papewaio; 12-11-2006 at 06:20.
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    Texan Member BigTex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Damn, my tin-foil hat won't save me afterall!

    Pape those arent microwaves, their ADS waves. While I'm sure their all to aware that it can be reflected, it would be a little hard. The width of the area effected will be quite large, a couple people can fit in it's path. There would be little if any way possible for someone in the waves path to hold that sign, their legs would feel like their being imolated in flames. They also note that they've even wrapped people in foil, even the smallest crack or hole in meant they were also "Goodbye".

    Great riot control weapon.
    Wine is a bit different, as I am sure even kids will like it.
    BigTex
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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Damn, my tin-foil hat won't save me afterall!

    Fairly obvious that a single hole would allow a 3mm wave to go through. A microwaves faraday cage has fairly small holes and that is for wavelengths that are four times larger then that of the weapon. So a faraday cage/shield against this weapon would have to have no holes any larger then a quarter on a side of those you see on a microwave oven.

    However after that has been achieved the waves can be manipulated just like other em waves. Which also means a user of the weapon could modify it with fairly cheap and accessible equipment (tin foil) to make it concentrate the radiation into a focal point and cause some really horrific damage with ease.

    Add to that I don't know many people who can run more then 500m in 3 seconds so it would be fairly easy to aim the beam on a person and keep it on.

    The weapon would be easy to modify to something deadly and/or be used for a longer exposure period to cause serious damage. It does actually mean tin foil hats have a use for once.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
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    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

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