Moderation not a part of being a moderator?

[Aenlic]

The wagons have circled, Clegane admits that his insult wasn't even veiled, I'm posting in a place which is supposed to be for this very purpose and yet I'm taken to task for it, even by the person who put the backroom in the Watchtower in the first place. It's all pretty clear. If this isn't the place for such criticism, then why is it here? Have I been complaining about warnings I've received recently which I did deserve? No. I deserved them and I accepted them. I'm here questioning the one which I feel was undeserved. In what I thought was the proper place.

Also, It's not just about a 0-point warning and both Mithrandir and Ser Clegane know it, and their dishonesty is apparent to me if not to others. And it's sheer hypocrisy of Ser Clegane to make statements regarding me personally attacking other patrons when I've never done so except in response to an initiation by the other party, and then for Clegane to come here and insult me for criticizing Mithrandir in a thread which appears to me to have been designed for questioning warnings? It's absolute crap. So, I'll make a deal. I'll climb off my excessively high horse when you do.

[Redleg]

The wagons have circled, Clegane admits that his insult wasn't even veiled, I'm posting in a place which is supposed to be for this very purpose and yet I'm taken to task for it, even by the person who put the backroom in the Watchtower in the first place. It's all pretty clear. If this isn't the place for such criticism, then why is it here? Have I been complaining about warnings I've received recently which I did deserve? No. I deserved them and I accepted them. I'm here questioning the one which I feel was undeserved. In what I thought was the proper place.

Also, It's not just about a 0-point warning and both Mithrandir and Ser Clegane know it, and their dishonesty is apparent to me if not to others. And it's sheer hypocrisy of Ser Clegane to make statements regarding me personally attacking other patrons when I've never done so except in response to an initiation by the other party, and then for Clegane to come here and insult me for criticizing Mithrandir in a thread which appears to me to have been designed for questioning warnings? It's absolute crap. So, I'll make a deal. I'll climb off my excessively high horse when you do.

This impression is not primarily or exclusively based on the statements in this particular thread here, but on a rather broad range of statements in other threads, where other patrons have repeatedly been personally attacked.

One such post of yours that Ser Clegane was referring to was this one.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...7&postcount=74

If your going to make such a claim - its normally better to review your own actions first. Your protest is about a warning alert about a light humor that the moderator did not think was proper in the backroom because of the nature of the joke. Nothing wrong with that alert at all, and maybe nothing wrong with the joke itself. But instead of addressing the alert and the comment that caused the alert - you chose a different course, one that belies your post here. Everyone can see the last sentence of your initial post was directed at an individual not the issue in which you wanted to discuss.

[econ21]

Aenlic, my understanding is that the Watchtower is a place to discuss Org policy. If you want to appeal about a particular warning rather than discuss policy, I would raise it first with the moderator and then with an admin. If a warning is not of general significance, I don't see why you need to make a public debate about it. The current tendency of people to start threads here about warning points for naughty words etc is just silly.

Unfortunately, this thread is not about an issue of policy and so also falls into the "just silly" category. Your argument against your alert is:

In what way did my post say X-citizens are stupid or Y-citizens are cowardly? You can jump to all the conclusions you wish. My post was an attempt at humor about a TV station. How you get from there to country bashing is a truly prodigious feat of conclusion leaping.

I am sorry, but that argument is just absurd. You got your alert for this:

But the real question is how long before they capitulate in the face of competition?

This "joke" is not even an attempt at a joke without its premise being the implict country-bashing assumption that French citizens are cowardly. Without such a premise, the above sentence is incomprehensible. Why should a broadcasting station capitulate? The fact that the sentence is still almost incomprehensible even with such an assumption merely shows it is not even redeemed by genuine humour.

If your claim is that you did not "say" the French are cowardly and so can't have been bashing them, then you are just being obtuse. I could post similar country bashing "jokes" based on the premise that X-citizens are stupid, dirty, money-grubbing, have large genitalia etc. The fact that I would not actually say that X-citizens have such characteristics would not make such garbage any more acceptable, nor mean I was innocent of country bashing.

No disrespect, but you are wasting our time.

[Ser Clegane]

Clegane admits that his insult wasn't even veiled

I stand by my statement that personally attacking people - be it other patrons or moderators - indicates a lack of manners with respect to the conduct on this board.
In your opening post you primarily played the man not the ball.
The Watchtower and its Backroom subforum are meant to talk about forum policies - not to just blow of steam and make personal attacks.

It is interesting that on one hand you consider the statements in your opening post to be criticism, while on the other hand you consider my response to it to be an insult.

And it's sheer hypocrisy of Ser Clegane to make statements regarding me personally attacking other patrons when I've never done so except in response to an initiation by the other party,

What falls within the scope of your definition of "initiation by the other party"?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Aenlic, I think it's pretty clear that Ser was not insulting you (I don't see how any other definition of 'cry' than the one mith posted would make sense in that context), and he said there was no veiled insult.

No one is saying this isn't the place to complain, it's just that people get tired of the drama. Makes you wonder why they read it, but it's sort of like this image, you just keep staring:

[Aenlic]

Everyone can see the last sentence of your initial post was directed at an individual not the issue in which you wanted to discuss.

Redleg, in that very same thread, you claimed to be there solely for the purpose of harrassing me. You stated as such. You posted nothing in the thread on topic. In fact, in a thread which asked if others were athiests and if so why, you - a self-proclaimed non-atheist - were there for no reason other than to harrass me. Your presence in this thread also has no point other than to harrass me. Just shut up. You're one of the people that the supposedly fair moderators allow to get away with things like the above. Even when you admit doing it, as you did here. Did you see me in the "Is anyone else a Christian" thread harrassing other people? No. I would have no business posting in that thread. And yet, you get away with such things and think you're special because of it.

Econ21, I accept the reasoning. It's the uneven enforcement, as displayed above, which is the problem. It's the lack of common sense and fairness in the enforcement of the rules. It has become institutionalized; and in the case of a couple of people already named, it has become obvious to the point of being a blatant double standard.

And that's all I have to say on the matter. Continue allowing Redleg to harrass other members with whom he disagrees, and others of his ilk who do the same, even after admitting it like rEdleg did. Continue promoting people who misuse their positions and engage in open hypocrisy. It really doesn't matter.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Amazingly it is often those who still have a lot of untapped potential when it comes to improving their manners , who seem to cry the loudest.

Same old same...

How am I crying, when I'm just telling the truth of some ironic warnings,come on

[Mithrandir]

Aenlic, I do love it, you resort back to one of the 3 great arguments patrons use.

Have a complaint about a warning ? Pick any of the 3 below :

- I can do much worse!
- Others did bad things too and they weren't warned!
- You're a triggerhappy stupid person with too much time on your hands, get a life!

You picked the second. On which fact do you base Redleg doesn't receive warnings for posts he makes which break the forum rules?

Anyway, ignore the above :

Let me summarise:

You're not complaining about the warning alert I handed you, but you feel you're being singled out ? Why didn't you state so in the initial post ?

[Gregoshi]

In fact, in a thread which asked if others were athiests and if so why, you - a self-proclaimed non-atheist - were there for no reason other than to harrass me.

Posting in a thread with which you disagree is standard Orgite practice. Happens all the time.

Thread: who believes in God? Reply: you religious folks are delusional
Thread: who hates Christmas? Reply: Merry Christmas
Thread: who likes Pink Floyd? Reply: Pink Floyd sucks.
Thread: who is ready for (American) football/soccer season? Reply: football/soccer is boring. Soccer/football is the real sport.
Thread: any fans of Tolkien out there? Reply: Tolkien stinks.
...and so it goes.

It is a bit of a pet peeve of mine, but any topic which is created for the sole purpose of discussion amongst like-minded people always gets crashed by those who feel differently. So instead of having a stimulating discussion with those who share your interest, you end up arguing with those who feel quite the opposite. 'Tis the nature of the beast.

As for these kinds of patron/moderator disputes, they almost always play out the same. It gets distrubingly predictable.

You're a triggerhappy stupid person with too much time on your hands, get a life!

"triggerhappy stupid person"? Come on Mith, you know it's always the "Nazi on a power trip" label.

[therother]

It is a bit of a pet peeve of mine, but any topic which is created for the sole purpose of discussion amongst like-minded people always gets crashed by those who feel differently. So instead of having a stimulating discussion with those who share your interest, you end up arguing with those who feel quite the opposite. 'Tis the nature of the beast.

I broadly agree with you Gregoshi. For starters, anyone who comes into a thread with the sole intention of disrupting it with a trollish "this topic sux!!11!" statement isn't worthy of much respect. OTOH, even discussions amongst like-minded people can descend into argument over the most trivial of disagreements (e.g. do Balrogs have wings?). Ultimately, only you are a like-minded person for yourself, and discussing things with yourself can get a little boring. Risking disagreement is the price one has to pay for meaningful discussion. I often find that the most stimulating discussions occur when you are debating with someone who has a different opinion from you.

This also highlights one of the strengths of this form of communication: it's perfectly possible to ignore such trollish behaviour, up to and including using the "Ignore poster" feature of the forum software. If you are discussing in person, and one member of your group is being disruptive, it is far more difficult to continue on with your discussion unabated. I therefore have little sympathy for those who choose to degrade themselves (and, more importantly, these forums) by participating in flame wars over trivialities (like whether Pink Floyd rulz or sux), even if they are supposedly "provoked".

[Redleg]

Redleg, in that very same thread, you claimed to be there solely for the purpose of harrassing me. You stated as such. You posted nothing in the thread on topic. In fact, in a thread which asked if others were athiests and if so why, you - a self-proclaimed non-atheist - were there for no reason other than to harrass me. Your presence in this thread also has no point other than to harrass me. Just shut up. You're one of the people that the supposedly fair moderators allow to get away with things like the above. Even when you admit doing it, as you did here. Did you see me in the "Is anyone else a Christian" thread harrassing other people? No. I would have no business posting in that thread. And yet, you get away with such things and think you're special because of it.

Ah you still don't get it do you?

Because the moderators will not inform you of any alert or warning others recieve, Aenlic I got the just deserved rebuttal from the moderators for my actions. The moderators do not inform you on what actions they take on others, if you engaged your grey matter just a tad bit more you would of figured that point out.

And that's all I have to say on the matter. Continue allowing Redleg to harrass other members with whom he disagrees, and others of his ilk who do the same, even after admitting it like rEdleg did. Continue promoting people who misuse their positions and engage in open hypocrisy. It really doesn't matter.

Lets see whats the old adage that fits this bill. The pot calling the Kettle black.

Malcolm! You need to lighten up! I am just jerking your chain.

[Stig]

So when do we get some .com rules here?
-Do not discuss mod actions

These threads are really getting irritating, you said you would follow the rules when you signed up. Well do so, modsare here to keep you inline with the rules, if you don't you get a warning, when mods give you a warning they are right. Seriously, you all are sounding like some football (soccer) player who complains that he got a yellow card for tackling an opponent. That's simply not allowed, agree to that or don't. If you don't just go and play a sport where you're allowed to attack opponents.

[Ser Clegane]

It's the uneven enforcement, as displayed above, which is the problem.

Hence I chose my custom title...

[caravel]

So when do we get some .com rules here?

Hopefully never.

[Myrddraal]

Folks, if you get warned or alerted or PM'd, it's between the moderator and you. How can you possibly decide that the treatment of members on this forum is uneven or biased when you don't know how other members are being treated?

Lets all take a step back now...

Aenlic you made a joke which could have been considered offensive to some. Pretty mild behavior. You got an alert, the mildest of the mild of 'warnings'.

You haven't been singled out, alerts are sent all the time, you just don't know of the alerts sent to other people (and rightly so). Alerts are meant (believe it or not ) to alert you of a problem in your post.

They aren't punishment. We're all mature enough not to need an 'evil headmaster vs bad boy' relationship, so lets all and get on with life.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Argeed Myrd. I see no reason to complain about Alerts. For Example, I got a Alert on the 24th of Octorober, because I had misspelled a word, and I said "cock" by accident and Ser gave me a Alert and I didn't say anything. Why? Because I misspelled it, and I should have checked over it, and it was just a Alert, period.

[Stig]

Folks, if you get warned or alerted or PM'd, it's between the moderator and you. How can you possibly decide that the treatment of members on this forum is uneven or biased when you don't know how other members are being treated?

We have a special forum where we all are member of, when some mods warns us we post there.
linky:
http://www.hereweallcomplainifmyrddr...dit.com/forums
or
http://www.camelsstink.com

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

lol Stig, good one

[Hosakawa Tito]

The faces may change, but it appears the excuses and lack of personal responsibility do not. I miss it not. Maybe an appropriate response would be a "Moderator for a Day" festival?

[Gregoshi]

As always, only the names change Hosa.

[Sjakihata]

Face it Aenlic mods are directly descended from gods and their wisdom is eternal and omniscient. Especially their arrogant attitude (displayed here by the two posts above mine) really gets me off and I think the mods needs to smoke a cigar and realize they are humans and do make mistakes. Sometimes it is actually quite advantageous to recognize ones mistakes and then sort it out. This defensive attitude amongst mods isnt helpful at all, they should all be sent to summer camp and learn how to actually engage in a dialogue or discourse.

All I see is stubborn people on each sides, only difference is that one side has the capabilities to IP ban.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Argeed Sja.

I think There Stubborn people, liek the Mods, who refuse to back down, when they warn someone for something dumb. and we got people who refuse to back down from the mods, rather they get warn for something they deserve or not. To Me, I don't like those people, the normal .org AND the Mods who are to defensive and BS.

I think Mods are like that, because My God, if they hae to back down and say "Sorry", it's the whole end of the world!! the Camels in Mith's Stable will all Die Because One of his own comrades (or even him) has to say sorry to a member he just banned for 3 days. Come on. I got Warnings I derserved and I never fought them, But I got these Stupid Warnings Lately, Most Noteably from Ser and them,that I didn't even derseve, and if I did Derseve something, mabye a Alert or 0 point warning. I think both sides needs to start backing down, .orgah members AND Mods. If the Mods can't,well, it time for New Mods. If >orgah members can't,well,we got a ploblem.

[Gregoshi]

I sure never felt divine Sjak. And I always worried I was making mistakes when I felt I had to get out the moderator "stick".

My grievance, if you wish to call it that, is how some patrons handle their disputes with moderators, namely, by airing it in public. Now, there is nothing wrong with a public discussion about forum practices. However, it usually turns into a personal axe to grind to a particular moderator. It is at this point in these discussions that patron after patron goes down the same exact path almost as if they were lemmings marching to the sea. It gets repetitive and frustrating to see the same patterns repeating themselves. Fortunately, it doesn't happen very often here at the Org. And I'll doft my hat to Aenlic in that he stopped himself from that seemingly inevitable march to the sea.

Lastly, moderators don't make "mistakes". They "go on power trips directed against innocent patrons with whom they have a personal vendetta"...or so it often seems. It would be nice to have a possible moderator "mistake" treated as if it might be a mistake" and nothing more.

[Sjakihata]

I sure never felt divine Sjak. And I always worried I was making mistakes when I felt I had to get out the moderator "stick".

My grievance, if you wish to call it that, is how some patrons handle their disputes with moderators, namely, by airing it in public. Now, there is nothing wrong with a public discussion about forum practices. However, it usually turns into a personal axe to grind to a particular moderator. It is at this point in these discussions that patron after patron goes down the same exact path almost as if they were lemmings marching to the sea. It gets repetitive and frustrating to see the same patterns repeating themselves. Fortunately, it doesn't happen very often here at the Org. And I'll doft my hat to Aenlic in that he stopped himself from that seemingly inevitable march to the sea.

Lastly, moderators don't make "mistakes". They "go on power trips directed against innocent patrons with whom they have a personal vendetta"...or so it often seems. It would be nice to have a possible moderator "mistake" treated as if it might be a mistake" and nothing more.

I agree with that and I think everyone is doing a great job.

[TosaInu]

only difference is that one side has the capabilities to IP ban.

Moderators don't have that capability.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Face it Aenlic mods are directly descended from gods and their wisdom is eternal and omniscient. Especially their arrogant attitude (displayed here by the two posts above mine) really gets me off and I think the mods needs to smoke a cigar and realize they are humans and do make mistakes. Sometimes it is actually quite advantageous to recognize ones mistakes and then sort it out. This defensive attitude amongst mods isnt helpful at all, they should all be sent to summer camp and learn how to actually engage in a dialogue or discourse.

All I see is stubborn people on each sides, only difference is that one side has the capabilities to IP ban.

Greg is arrogant??? Anyone who knows him at all can attest that he is in fact the exact opposite.

I never admit to mistakes and/or apologize for them??? Again, anyone who knows me will call you on that one too.

You're tilting at the wrong windmill Sjakihata. Hence why I suggest, tongue in cheek, that a moderator for a day festival might be appropriate for those that feel so terribly repressed. Walk in a moderators shoes for a time and show us your stuff, deal with the conflicts, both real & imagined, using just the written word, no body language or voice inflection to gauge meaning or intent. And then do it all perfectly to everyones satifaction.

Meh, your probably right. It's just easier to stand on the sideline, let others take the responsibility, make mountains out of all the little molehills, and complain.

[Sjakihata]

To conclude this, which I will no longer discuss since I seem to be misinterpreted (on purpose?).

No where did I call any moderator by person arrogant or lousy or what not. All I did was to point out the fact that I think the above is an arrogant attitude. To say someone has an arrogant attitude in a post, is not the same as saying in general is arrogant. I hope you understand this and that my comment was not directed as an assault on either part, merely saying that I find these debates fruitless and stubborn, that's all.

[Sjakihata]

since I cannot edit my post, here is a clarification in a sentence above what i meant was: (To say someone has an arrogant attitude in a post, is not the same as saying in general is arrogant.)

Is supposed to be: To say someone has an arrogant attitude in a post, is not the same as saying in general that the person is arrogant.

[Gregoshi]

I understand now Sjak. Arrogance was not my intent in that post and I apologize that it did come across as such.

[Sjakihata]

I understand now Sjak. Arrogance was not my intent in that post and I apologize that it did come across as such.

No reason to apologize, however, I do accept it. I know words can come across diffrently based on culture, perception and individual quirks. Let's call this settled and I'll step away where I do not belong.